How terribly close is hitting and swinging?

[nuke99]

Can someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.

Both left side only gets to PULL, which mean left shoulder still need to still Pull the arms from the top for hitters and to support the 4 1 2 3 release for hitters.

Both Right side only gets to PUSH. even for swingers.

Both require rhythm.. Hitting is not a independently powered right tricep . Very common misconception about hitting.

Both Hitting and swinging can use any hinge action
Both hitting and swinging can use sequential or Overlapping release. and different release points

Swinger use Throwaways.. Hitters use muscular force. And , both hitting or swinging tricep behaves the same , As Active or As passive ( I think the difference is in the participation of pivot, swinger use pivot , hitter, push/punch stroke use or don't use pivot power). Or some might call it extensor action , some might call it No.1 accumulator (but they have no difference in motion and feel, still doing the same job)!.. HOWEVER ... swinger tricep supports the Secondary( pull the shaft thus also makes the back swing longer) assembly while Hitter supports the Primary assembly ( pull left thumb). The HUGE difference of the required axe and rope motion is thus achieved with different no.3 pressure point and elbow position. 90% of the difference is done at setup.

SO... which is why Hitting and swinging execution and motion is very much the same, but with different result in feel , hinging and mechanics.

Ie. a 4 barrel HIT stroke still require a shoulder throw to load the No.4 accumulator.

AND they can Feel very much the same. but different Look and motion.

Any thoughts on this?

[comdpa]

Can someone please correct me if I am wrong about this.

Both left side only gets to PULL, which mean left shoulder still need to still Pull the arms from the top for hitters and to support the 4 1 2 3 release for hitters.

Both Right side only gets to PUSH. even for swingers.

Both require rhythm.. Hitting is not a independently powered right tricep . Very common misconception about hitting.

Both Hitting and swinging can use any hinge action
Both hitting and swinging can use sequential or Overlapping release. and different release points

Swinger use Throwaways.. Hitters use muscular force. And , both hitting or swinging tricep behaves the same , As Active or As passive ( I think the difference is in the participation of pivot, swinger use pivot , hitter, push/punch stroke use or don't use pivot power). Or some might call it extensor action , some might call it No.1 accumulator (but they have no difference in motion and feel, still doing the same job)!.. HOWEVER ... swinger tricep supports the Secondary( pull the shaft thus also makes the back swing longer) assembly while Hitter supports the Primary assembly ( pull left thumb). The HUGE difference of the required axe and rope motion is thus achieved with different no.3 pressure point and elbow position. 90% of the difference is done at setup.

SO... which is why Hitting and swinging execution and motion is very much the same, but with different result in feel , hinging and mechanics.

Ie. a 4 barrel HIT stroke still require a shoulder throw to load the No.4 accumulator.

AND they can Feel very much the same. but different Look and motion.

Any thoughts on this?

Go and have a think about what you ACTUALLY do during a tug-of-war contest.

[6bmike]

Homer Kelley said that The Golfing Machine produces no un-golf like motions. Outside of the top position of a Hitter- the motion of both strokes are identical. The Action is different- very different.

Some of your analysis is a bit off the mark and some distinction missing, but you are right about the motion being identical.

[nuke99]

Mike, appreciate your thought . Which do you think is Off mark?

Is what you meant the Axe, low speed thrust, overlapping release, release type, trigger delay, throws, Muscular , shorter and vice versa? The characteristics? And what I am trying to say ... regardless if its a HIT or a swing.. we can do both hinges , overlapping or sequential release,

Say Tom Watson is a swinger with highly overlapped release, Bobby Clamppett is a Angled hinge Swinger..Ted fort can do a Horizontal Hit stroke if he likes. Even Un-characteristic of a swing or hit can still be introduced to a stroke and still be called a swinging or hitting by Homer Kelly.

So what really differs a swinger and a hitter ? what are important changes? Thats what i am trying to sort out

So far my conclusion is, we only need to change 3 following things to differ a hit and swing;

1. the way the extensor action ( or acc 1) apply on primary/secondary lever assembly, making it "Active" and "Passive". but the right elbow keep pushing and keep the extensor action ON, at all time .
2. the way the PP#3 is placed( side or top aft), to be driven actively or passively.
3. the punch/pitch Elbow position ,

this 3 changes alone will change the CORE Mechanics/Action between a swing and a HIT in TGM terms, in any case with a pivot delivery stroke, without question?( including cause and effect of the characteristic of hitting and swinging which everyone is familiar with, like we do not need to think the back swing shorter or longer, muscular thrust or throwaway,active or passive tricep+ many other characteristics , it automatically applies),

However , the Execution/Motion is very much the same with just 3 changes... Hum... anybody understand what i am trying to express?

Thats what I am trying to ask...

Give me more clue . Master Comdpa.. not sure where your aiming at...

[6bmike]

First off. Extensor Action IS NOT Accumulator Number One. The First Power Accumulator DRIVES the Lever Assemblies. The straightening right arm drives #1 Pressure Point and #3 Pressure Point behind the shaft. Of the Four Thrusts- 6-C-0, the second type, 6-C-0-2, Extensor Action, is the only Non- Accelerating thrust. It is an in-line action. Extensor action pulls the left arm in a straight line but doesn’t push the left arm or lever assembly towards the ball. Extensor Action is present in both CF throw-Out Swing and Muscle Power Drive of the straightening Right arm. The Swinger’s Right arm is inert and the Hitter’s right arm is active muscle power. Extensor Action is the glue of the Flying Wedges- it welds the structure. It is not power. Accumulator One is POWER.
On the 45 point Mechanical Checklist For All Strokes, 12-3-0, Extensor Action is 20 per cent of the list. (see: Homer’s Greatest Hits Video clip)

Lynn explained this way: The accelerating Thrust of Accumulator 1 is “anything but a ‘gentle Stretching’ of the Left Arm. Instead, it is a decisive -- even rigid (7-1) -- Thrust! - that Uncocks both the Right Elbow and the Left Wrist.”

The number three Pressure Point is not “placed” differently. It is not relocated by the type of grip but by the Left Wrist Action on the take-away for the Swinger. A Hitter uses a Single, 10-18-C-2 which keeps the #3pp behind the shaft. A Swinger uses Standard, 10-18-A, that is Turned on Take-away and places the #3pp under the shaft at the End of the stroke. Only the Turned hand relocates the relationship of pp3 to the plane. (see- “PP3 Where are you?” Video clip)

Motion is Geometry (of the Circle). The Geometry of the Circle is always the same for Hit and Swinger, save perhaps for some uncompensated stroke. Action is force. The power that is very different in the two patterns. Swinger’s Throw –OUT (not “away”) and flirts with Throw-away since they strike the ball with a whirling clubhead they have no control over. A Hitter Drives or Pushes the ENTIRE club - shaft and Clubhead. They have total control of the clubhead. And the ball, which makes Hitting a great scoring stroke. This makes #1pp active and a Hitter's best friend.

Of the 24 components 9 are different. 10-, 3, 4, 10, 11, 18, 19 ,20 ,21, and 22. Sometimes a Hitter likes to start at address with a Bent Right and a Flat Left Wrist(s).
Also see 6-H-0-E and F.


Swinger’s don’t push anything- It is All throw-OUT. Hitter’s are like Boxers- they Drive and Push. The Right Elbow can Delay release just as the Swinger’s snap release Left wrist Throw Delays release.

A Hitter doesn’t Pull his arm/hands back to the Plane since Top is right shoulder high but Pulls his Pivot taut. Results in the same position - same pivot lag loaded.
A Swingers Pivot CORRECTLY “gets out of the way” for the Hands. The Right Shoulder (pivot) is a rotor. A Hitter’s Pivot also “gets out of the way” but also allows the right shoulder to support the driving right arm. The Right Shoulder (pivot) is the "equal and opposite reaction” platform to support the drive down of the right arm to the ball. It is still a turning body motion- the action is different and undetectable by the viewer.

You can use any Hinge Angle for any stroke but not without a cost or difficulty. Dual HH is perfect for a CF throw-out and the Accumulator #1 Drive Down is works naturally with Angled Hinge Action Angle of Approach attack on the ball. Hinge Action is rhythm, so rhythm is of course used in both patterns. Each are listed as imperative in 6-H-0-E-1 and 6-H-0-F-1.

And there are Plane Lines, Stance Lines and Delivery Paths and Lines that work better for one over the other. "Drive to Right Field" is a common Hitter's Swing thought.

Adjutsmenst to ball position, Clubface at address

What looks similair, works differently.

_____________________________

Disclaimer: I am only talking about the two basic stroke patterns in the 6th Edition- The Swing Stroke Pattern- Drag Loaded- and the Hit Stroke Pattern- Drive Loaded.
If I am wrong with what I posted or still have some fog lingering on my thoughts as I wrote them that makes it less than satisfactory please discuss this with me. Otherwise, I do not post about, endorse, advocate, or use any Right Arm Swing or whichever variation of a right side CF throw or push by any practitioner or practitioners, so question, concerns or rebut should begin another thread in good spirit. IMHO.

[neil]

Those were two great posts-for different reasons but still great!

[YodasLuke]

Disclaimer: I am only talking about the two basic stroke patterns in the 6th Edition- The Swing Stroke Pattern- Drag Loaded- and the Hit Stroke Pattern- Drive Loaded.
If I am wrong with what I posted or still have some fog lingering on my thoughts as I wrote them that makes it less than satisfactory please discuss this with me. Otherwise, I do not post about, endorse, advocate, or use any Right Arm Swing or whichever variation of a right side CF throw or push by any practitioner or practitioners, so question, concerns or rebut should begin another thread in good spirit. IMHO.

Great post. But, the disclaimer is pure brilliance (IMHO).

[12 piece bucket]

Mike, appreciate your thought . Which do you think is Off mark?

Is what you meant the Axe, low speed thrust, overlapping release, release type, trigger delay, throws, Muscular , shorter and vice versa? The characteristics? And what I am trying to say ... regardless if its a HIT or a swing.. we can do both hinges , overlapping or sequential release,

Say Tom Watson is a swinger with highly overlapped release, Bobby Clamppett is a Angled hinge Swinger..Ted fort can do a Horizontal Hit stroke if he likes. Even Un-characteristic of a swing or hit can still be introduced to a stroke and still be called a swinging or hitting by Homer Kelly.

So what really differs a swinger and a hitter ? what are important changes? Thats what i am trying to sort out

So far my conclusion is, we only need to change 3 following things to differ a hit and swing;

1. the way the extensor action ( or acc 1) apply on primary/secondary lever assembly, making it "Active" and "Passive". but the right elbow keep pushing and keep the extensor action ON, at all time .
2. the way the PP#3 is placed( side or top aft), to be driven actively or passively.
3. the punch/pitch Elbow position ,

this 3 changes alone will change the CORE Mechanics/Action between a swing and a HIT in TGM terms, in any case with a pivot delivery stroke, without question?( including cause and effect of the characteristic of hitting and swinging which everyone is familiar with, like we do not need to think the back swing shorter or longer, muscular thrust or throwaway,active or passive tricep+ many other characteristics , it automatically applies),

However , the Execution/Motion is very much the same with just 3 changes... Hum... anybody understand what i am trying to express?

Thats what I am trying to ask...

Give me more clue . Master Comdpa.. not sure where your aiming at...

Hitting and Swinging are very much different in terms of the method, timing and nature of Acceleration in my opinion. The geometry itself is very much similar ex) you can Hit with a Pitch Elbow and you can Swing with a Punch Elbow. But the differences are very much with regards to how the G.O.L.F.er handles Conservation of Angular Momentum and the requisite Acceleration differences.

So what's the deal? Conservation of Angular Momentum is basically present in ALL golf swings regardless of the method of Thrust (CF or muscle). Clubhead reaches its top speed at Release. It is actually slowing due to conservation of momentum as the radius extends. So the club is either Driven out or Thrown out via CF. Every player is up against this inevitable slow down due to momentum being conserved. However, conservation of momentum is in absence of Thrust. Therefore Mr. Kelley believed that the slow down could be mitigated however not avioded by Thrust. Hence, sustain the Lag Pressure, the Line of Compression and THRUST.

So how is the Thrust different for both procedures? It is different and significantly different.

First the Swinger . . . Mr. Kelley demonstrated the body being in essence a "Massive Rotor" by spinning on one of them spinning chairs or stools. When he stuck out his arms the chair didn't slow down very much. However, when he stuck out his legs the chair slowed significantly. So this basically means that the Swinger has a HUGE mass (his body) relative to his "lightweight" arms that basically Thrust the Lever Assemblies through the Orbit. So what this means with regards to Handspeed is comparitively different than the Hitter. The Swinger gets the Massive Rotor SPINNING at the Start Down. Ideally pulling every component in line QUICKLY via Instant Hip Acceleration . . . then Mr. Kelley said that the function of the Pivot was to "just stay ahead." As a result of the "quick" Startdown blasting the Sweetspot into its On Plane Orbit, the Swinger reaches his Max Handspeed much faster than the Hitter. Then he just "hangs on." No really huge amount of effort is necessary because the Body is so much more MASSIVE relative to the Arms and Club. So just keep turning. This MASSIVE Rotor is the Swinger's advantage over the Hitter.

The Hitter on the other hand forfits to a large degree the Mass of the Pivot. The Right Shoulder (pivot) becomes the "backstop" for the Hitter to Thrust the Tricep and Straightening Right Arm against. Mr. Kelley likened this to the recoil of a shotgun where the shoulder gets beatup by the gun's stock. The pivot as Ted Fort so expertly points out for the Hitter "justs gets the massive cannon ball rolling . . . ITS EASIER TO PUSH A ROLLING CANNONBALL THAN A CANNON BALL AT REST." So the Right Shoulder gets the Right Arm DOWNPLANE past the Line of Sight to the Ball and then the Right Tricep deliverys a PUNCH through Impact. Since the Right Shoulder is simply providing the support for the Punch the Acceleration is NECESSARILY slower in order for the Thrust and the Lag Pressure Loaded by the Pivot to be SUSTAINED. Since the Hitter just has his Ticeps to Thrust and Accelerate his hands through the Release interval. He MUST not shoot his Load to soon. He MUST have a slow startdown and get his Right Shoulder Down Plane otherwise he will run out of Right Arm. Also since he has forfitted the Massive Rotor his Thrust and Max Handspeed has to happen MUCH later.

To me them is the differences . . . and they are"biggies."

[nuke99]

Hitting and Swinging are very much different in terms of the method, timing and nature of Acceleration in my opinion. The geometry itself is very much similar ex) you can Hit with a Pitch Elbow and you can Swing with a Punch Elbow. But the differences are very much with regards to how the G.O.L.F.er handles Conservation of Angular Momentum and the requisite Acceleration differences.

So what's the deal? Conservation of Angular Momentum is basically present in ALL golf swings regardless of the method of Thrust (CF or muscle). Clubhead reaches its top speed at Release. It is actually slowing due to conservation of momentum as the radius extends. So the club is either Driven out or Thrown out via CF. Every player is up against this inevitable slow down due to momentum being conserved. However, conservation of momentum is in absence of Thrust. Therefore Mr. Kelley believed that the slow down could be mitigated however not avioded by Thrust. Hence, sustain the Lag Pressure, the Line of Compression and THRUST.

So how is the Thrust different for both procedures? It is different and significantly different.

First the Swinger . . . Mr. Kelley demonstrated the body being in essence a "Massive Rotor" by spinning on one of them spinning chairs or stools. When he stuck out his arms the chair didn't slow down very much. However, when he stuck out his legs the chair slowed significantly. So this basically means that the Swinger has a HUGE mass (his body) relative to his "lightweight" arms that basically Thrust the Lever Assemblies through the Orbit. So what this means with regards to Handspeed is comparitively different than the Hitter. The Swinger gets the Massive Rotor SPINNING at the Start Down. Ideally pulling every component in line QUICKLY via Instant Hip Acceleration . . . then Mr. Kelley said that the function of the Pivot was to "just stay ahead." As a result of the "quick" Startdown blasting the Sweetspot into its On Plane Orbit, the Swinger reaches his Max Handspeed much faster than the Hitter. Then he just "hangs on." No really huge amount of effort is necessary because the Body is so much more MASSIVE relative to the Arms and Club. So just keep turning. This MASSIVE Rotor is the Swinger's advantage over the Hitter.

The Hitter on the other hand forfits to a large degree the Mass of the Pivot. The Right Shoulder (pivot) becomes the "backstop" for the Hitter to Thrust the Tricep and Straightening Right Arm against. Mr. Kelley likened this to the recoil of a shotgun where the shoulder gets beatup by the gun's stock. The pivot as Ted Fort so expertly points out for the Hitter "justs gets the massive cannon ball rolling . . . ITS EASIER TO PUSH A ROLLING CANNONBALL THAN A CANNON BALL AT REST." So the Right Shoulder gets the Right Arm DOWNPLANE past the Line of Sight to the Ball and then the Right Tricep deliverys a PUNCH through Impact. Since the Right Shoulder is simply providing the support for the Punch the Acceleration is NECESSARILY slower in order for the Thrust and the Lag Pressure Loaded by the Pivot to be SUSTAINED. Since the Hitter just has his Ticeps to Thrust and Accelerate his hands through the Release interval. He MUST not shoot his Load to soon. He MUST have a slow startdown and get his Right Shoulder Down Plane otherwise he will run out of Right Arm. Also since he has forfitted the Massive Rotor his Thrust and Max Handspeed has to happen MUCH later.

To me them is the differences . . . and they are"biggies."

Yes Bucket ~

I quite understand the mechanics of hitting and swinging their differences .. Master Yoda, Ted and Justin did a A plus plus job on that ..

My intention is not to repeat and explain what Master Yoda, Ted and Justin had explained in the past.. I am am thinking of what they had explained and the application . HOW they connects, thus the cause and effect . SO... please people.. don't get scared just because I try to explain it another way. Its still the same thing.

The pitch and punch elbow differs because on how it supports the assembly . So I do not really agree that you can hit or swing with both because its also a cause and effect of an alignment.

For example ... For ANY hitters ...in the full swing the right elbow doesn't really start Pushing from the end or top to after impact, they retain the accumulator 1 till waist height or mid swing whatever ( depending on the release point etc) ... The Pivot still need to PULL the arms and right shoulder "Throws"/push the power package, but because of the support of the primary assembly the right shoulder becomes a backstop. Not by intent, its automatic . So Every Hitter is a switter? Because I think we are missing the very obvious.the left pulls, the right push , no matter what. We cannot call that switting, its just Hitting with a delivery stroke . Thus its so similar in that sense..

NOW ... stay with me for a moment. Bucket ! what i am trying to say

Hitting is by Powering and delivering the PRIMARY ASSEMBLY. The right tricep( and forearm ) supports the primary assembly and makes the triangle rigid. The right elbow naturally becomes both Accumulator 1 and Extensor action and naturally become punch elbow .7-3. not by intention.. it have to happen due to the geometry ..

Swinging is by Throwing and delivering the SECONDARY ASSEMBLY . The right tricep (and forearm) supports the secondary assembly the triangle is not rigid .. NO matter how you stretch and push this assembly , the right elbow CANNOT BECOME ACCUMULATOR ONE. It only stays as Extensor Action . Due to this geometry.. The elbow naturally becomes a pitch elbow.. Because of the way the Forearm support the assembly...7-3 ...

SO ,,, I think hitting and swinging.. That are the Cause when we apply .. I believe that other component , effect , would naturally fall into place .. If you see what I mean.

( THOUGH i would bring out one point, is it possible for the Swingers to pull the thumb and strengthen the support of primary assembly as well? I think yes !... Only if he understood the role of the tricep and forearm to support the secondary assembly! IF the arm and hand are educated well, its very ok! But I did not want to bring this point in afraid to confuse my point)



Therefore another way of saying is .. THE DIFFERENCE that you highlighted above are mostly EFFECT... Not that you try to "artificially" create this EFFECT. And thats where alot of people get into trouble .. It should not be done that way.THUS 7-3 , 61BD, how the extensor action/forearm support the assembly is a CAUSE. Of course, delivery line shift etc , instant hip acceleration are part and puzzle but best to leave them for another day.

So now , is it possible to HIT or Swing at the same time? ... Yes... but what for ? and NO, its just not possible unless you want a throwaway and if your forearm and tricep knows their role ..

please think about it ...Then I am happy to be proven otherwise ..


--------------
Bagger,

Thank you for the answer an the extreme patience ! .. , look is not so different. Again... I am just trying to say.. the position of the PP3 is really "an EFFECT", of how the forearm support the secondary assembly, have to use that position if we want to drive the PP3 behind the shaft, down the plane. HK did mention it but in other words.

--------------
6mike,

I thank you for helping me out here.. It doesn't go forgotten.


Note :

I am trying to explain what I now think,

TO differentiate a swing and a HIT. its not trying simply to match up the 24 component in chapter 12 or get the "motion"and you get a hit or a swing... ,

ie , "Activate " your accumulator 1 to become a hit or a swing, create instant hip acceleration ,load the shaft like a rope or axe , put your elbow this way blah blah.( i believe some people here thinks that way and it became "POSITION" GOLF doesn't it ?). Simply NOT it , These are EFFECTS and not meant to be Artificially created. This way of analogy and the way to apply, explain the ESSENCE of the book is WRONG to me .

I think its slightly more than that. We need to understand the Cause.. and there is the Effect which happens because there is a cause ...and 7-3 is the central of all explanation in the geometry and component of TGM swing and hit, flying wedge.

[bts]

"Lag" needs to be sustained through the grip by pushing in "hitting" or by pulling in "swinging", or by both in "switting".