Lag transportation

[rvwink]

Ben Doyle talks about the essential transportation for a swingers lag being the pivot. Doesn't a hitter also need transportation for his lag? Could that be a combination of the downswing waggle's initial hip movement, combined with the initial shoulder drive down the plain, aka 4 barreled hitting?

[nuke99]

Yes.. hitter also need pivot to transport.

The difference between 4 and 3 barrel is 4 barrel will also use No.4 pressure point/accumulator.. while 3 barrel just use 1 23 accumulator .. but the pivot merely support the transport of the arms.

I would like to think that Lag is felt by pressure point.

[drewitgolf]

Hitting or Swinging there is Right Shoulder Turn Thrust and Pivot Lag, but it only provides the initial Acceleration to Release Point. Then the Power Package is Released with Drive Out (Active Right Elbow) or Throw Out (Passive Right Elbow) to Release Accumulators #2 and #3 Simultaneously (Hitting) or Sequenced (Swinging).

It becomes a Four Barrel if the Four Accumulator is an Action (does ANY work) as opposed to strictly a Motion (no work).

[Mike O]

Ben Doyle talks about the essential transportation for a swingers lag being the pivot. Doesn't a hitter also need transportation for his lag? Could that be a combination of the downswing waggle's initial hip movement, combined with the initial shoulder drive down the plain, aka 4 barreled hitting?

Alot of issues to cover here- to touch on a couple.
First:
If the above is correct or not- One must understand that you have described mechanical features of the movement - that shouldn't be used as procedural ques for performing the movement.

Second:
7-12 Pivot- 2nd Paragraph:
For the Hitter Mr. Kelley starts with:
"It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitter's driving Right Arm (6-B-1)."
Then he continues on in regards to the Swinger:
"It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer to the Swinger's Left Arm (6-B-3).

The final sentence of that paragraph in the 7th edition applys to both Hitter's and Swinger's:
"The Pivot along with the Arms and Hands, supply the Basic Hinging which The Flat Vertical Left Wrist individualizes into the Three Hinge Motions of the Clubface."

I don't think that you will find Mr. Kelley using the concept of the "Pivot transporting lag".

Finally- when reading section 7-12 paragraph #2- It is important to:

First, understand that he is referring to the more common references of a 3-barrel stroke- accumulators 1,2,3 for the Hitter and accumulators 2,3,4 for the Swinger. (The paragraph wouldn't make sense in relation to a 4 barrel stroke)

Second, since the Golfing Machine was intended to categorize any and all strokes- you need to understand that he is referring here to a common full shot- alot of the above doesn't necessarily have to be so- for zero pivot strokes, different patterns, etc.

To repeat:
For the Hitter - the Pivot would transport the "Power Package Assembly" Read his words carefully- "the vehicle" transports (Hitters).

The Swinger would not JUST transport- The Swinger would have an initial acceleration that would create pressure on pressure point number 4. It's the massive rotor transferring momentum in the left arm.

Now I'm headed back to Bucket's Trunk where I belong. Take a shower man- I can smell you from here!

[Mike O]

Hitting or Swinging there is Right Shoulder Turn Thrust and Pivot Lag, but it only provides the initial Acceleration to Release Point. Then the Power Package is Released with Drive Out (Active Right Elbow) or Throw Out (Passive Right Elbow) to Release Accumulators #2 and #3 Simultaneously (Hitting) or Sequenced (Swinging).

It becomes a Four Barrel if the Four Accumulator is an Action (does ANY work) as opposed to strictly a Motion (no work).

Sounded good to me Drewit. As I read it more closely though- you might consider this clarification.
Right Shoulder Thrust would be creating a #4 pressure point pressure- you'd be using #4 accumulator- that was a little unclear in your post - Anotherwords you might not have right shoulder thrust.

Usually, you'll see Mr. Kelley use "initial acceleration" in the reference to Swingers and not Hitters. Accumulators #2 & #3 for the Swinger may or may not start to release at the point the initial acceleration (assuming there was some) stopped. Their release could take place later.

You'll notice the last sentence kind of intertwined acceleration types (Hitting and Swinging) with release point and release types. So the power package release point of #2 & #3 accumulators is a separate issue from when the initial acceleration ends- if any - of the pivot. The power package is released via triggers not acceleration types, although certainly in the context of "powered by" - the sentence has merit.

Not meant to "rip ya" but every once in awhile I think that there are a few people that are interested in the "clarifications". However, it's been a long time since providing details/clarification was the intent behind my posts and due to time constraints, etc. - it's not really my interest to post in that light anymore- but every once in awhile the old Mike O. needs to re-surface. If I got something wrong or mis-interpeted something - feel free to ignore it- I just hope that someone else might understand something where they might have otherwise mis-interpreted it.

Good luck with the teaching and the game.

[6bmike]

To repeat:
For the Hitter - the Pivot would transport the "Power Package Assembly" Read his words carefully- "the vehicle" transports (Hitters).

The Swinger would not JUST transport- The Swinger would have an initial acceleration that would create pressure on pressure point number 4. It's the massive rotor transferring momentum in the left arm.

This is great stuff- Mike.
The image of the pivot transporting the Power Package needs to be ingrained onto the psyche of every TGMer. The pivot is not a twist or a spin but a hip motion that sets up either a punch for a Hitter’s Power Package or a slingshot for the Swinger’s Power Package.

btw-This is why you can not be effective in trying to pull and push.

[Mike O]

This is great stuff- Mike.
The image of the pivot transporting the Power Package needs to be ingrained onto the psyche of every TGMer. The pivot is not a twist or a spin but a hip motion that sets up either a punch for a Hitter’s Power Package or a slingshot for the Swinger’s Power Package.

btw-This is why you can not be effective in trying to pull and push.

In the context of my post and the 2nd paragraph in 7-12-

"The image of the pivot transporting the Power Package needs to be ingrained into the psyche of every" - 3 barrel Hitter. At least that is how I would write what you wrote.

The pivot isn't a hip motion. Nor is it a hip motion that sets up ......
The pivot is the combined motion or lack thereof - of the feet, knees, hip, shoulder motions. See Homer Kelley's definition(s).

It is the acceleration method (Hitting or Swinging) and it's particular loading characteristics that "tends" to set up a punch elbow position for the Hitter's Power Package and a pitch elbow postion for the Swinger's Power Package. Although- elbow positions are really just optional choices (variations) depending on one's inherent pattern- nothing mandatory there. To infer that the Hitter always would have a punch elbow position or the Swinger always would have a pitch elbow position- really misses what the Golfing Machine book is all about.

Again, most of this is just the mechanical features of what is happening and not ideas that you would want to focus on while making the movement. Except - when you are improving your movement, this wealth of mechanical information can help you understand the nature of your particular problem and become an important problem solving tool chest to unravel your particular movement puzzle.

Anyway Mike- Just trying to keep you on "my" train of thinking. Not saying that it's the right train to be on.

[6bmike]

In the context of my post and the 2nd paragraph in 7-12-

"The image of the pivot transporting the Power Package needs to be ingrained into the psyche of every" - 3 barrel Hitter. At least that is how I would write what you wrote.

Let the Pivot do its job- Let the pivot move the Hands, Let the pivot move the Power Package. The Hands trained the pivot well to enjoy the free ride.
I still like the imagine of the whole Power Package going "bye-bye" as a passenger on the pivot train.

The pivot isn't a hip motion. Nor is it a hip motion that sets up ......
The pivot is the combined motion or lack thereof - of the feet, knees, hip, shoulder motions. See Homer Kelley's definition(s).

Of course the pivot is more than the motion of the Hips, but it is the Hips that Hula Hula with the shoulders to set up the delivery of the Hands.

It is the acceleration method (Hitting or Swinging) and it's particular loading characteristics that "tends" to set up a punch elbow position for the Hitter's Power Package and a pitch elbow postion for the Swinger's Power Package. Although- elbow positions are really just optional choices (variations) depending on one's inherent pattern- nothing mandatory there. To infer that the Hitter always would have a punch elbow position or the Swinger always would have a pitch elbow position- really misses what the Golfing Machine book is all about.

When I said punch (small p), I was refering to the feel of the attack the right arm in a Hit Stroke, not the Elbow Position. A Hitter sets up like a boxer and drives a punch through the ball.

Again, most of this is just the mechanical features of what is happening and not ideas that you would want to focus on while making the movement. Except - when you are improving your movement, this wealth of mechanical information can help you understand the nature of your particular problem and become an important problem solving tool chest to unravel your particular movement puzzle.

Anyway Mike- Just trying to keep you on "my" train of thinking. Not saying that it's the right train to be on.

I have enjoyed the scope of your Golfing Machine knowledge for many years, especially when I was the top dumb hammer in a box of dumb hammers. Today I can make a few Machine adjustments and that my friend is a great feeling.

6b

[Mike O]

Let the Pivot do its job- Let the pivot move the Hands, Let the pivot move the Power Package. The Hands trained the pivot well to enjoy the free ride.
I still like the imagine of the whole Power Package going "bye-bye" as a passenger on the pivot train.

Here's where we differ Mike:.
"My view is the exact opposite of the one that you posted above. "Let the hands move the pivot." "The Hands never get a free ride. They are not a passenger on the pivot train- they are the driver of the pivot train."

Of course, the pivot is more than the motion of the Hips, but it is the Hips that Hula Hula with the shoulders to set up the delivery of the Hands.

Again, my view is just the opposite:
The Hands have their goal, which creates the sliding of the hips (Hula Hula) on the downswing- which in turn keeps the right shoulder down and back. The hips don't Hula Hula to set up the delivery of the Hands- The Hands inititate and create the delivery and the hip(s) move out of the way (ideally) to allow that delivery to continue on the intended path
6b

See my comments above in bold. I don't post much because it's not worth the effort and I don't have the time to post the full implication, elaboration and validation of the related issues involved- to fully support the concept. A forum really isn't the best place to do that. In summary, if you want the difference between a hand controlled pivot and pivot controlled hands- just read above.

[drewitgolf]

Sounded good to me Drewit. As I read it more closely though- you might consider this clarification.
Right Shoulder Thrust would be creating a #4 pressure point pressure- you'd be using #4 accumulator- that was a little unclear in your post - Anotherwords you might not have right shoulder thrust.

Usually, you'll see Mr. Kelley use "initial acceleration" in the reference to Swingers and not Hitters. Accumulators #2 & #3 for the Swinger may or may not start to release at the point the initial acceleration (assuming there was some) stopped. Their release could take place later.

You'll notice the last sentence kind of intertwined acceleration types (Hitting and Swinging) with release point and release types. So the power package release point of #2 & #3 accumulators is a separate issue from when the initial acceleration ends- if any - of the pivot. The power package is released via triggers not acceleration types, although certainly in the context of "powered by" - the sentence has merit.

Not meant to "rip ya" but every once in awhile I think that there are a few people that are interested in the "clarifications". However, it's been a long time since providing details/clarification was the intent behind my posts and due to time constraints, etc. - it's not really my interest to post in that light anymore- but every once in awhile the old Mike O. needs to re-surface. If I got something wrong or mis-interpeted something - feel free to ignore it- I just hope that someone else might understand something where they might have otherwise mis-interpreted it.

Good luck with the teaching and the game.

No arguement here, Mike. I try to keep my posts brief and to the point. If they are unclear, I am always willing to elborate.