Aligning the Clubface

[Mike O]

Somewhat common in forum posts are people not understanding where someone else is coming from - they are coming from a different perspective that hasn't been identified and the other person is coming from a different perspective that isn't identified - and no progress is made. I'm sure there are other reasons that no agreement or progress is made in forum threads.

I'm trying my best to clarify my post -
1st: Bumpy started this thread - labeled "Clubface Alignment" and then had this quote "The True Swinger allows Centrifugal Force to align for Impact all three Functions of the Club, i.e., the Clubhead, the Clubshaft and the Clubface."

Any and all of my posts relate to this specific topic - How does Centrifugal Force align the clubface in a TRUE swing - as I tried to shed some light on Bumpy's original question. I'm making an effort to define the context and boundaries of my post(s) - I'm hoping that others will do the same.

In a different context, I have no issues with HB's post. However, in the context of Bumpy's original question - it sheds no light on the subject matter.

Further, when I said HB had no understanding between a True swinger and a Manipulated swinger - his follow-up post doesn't confirm or deny it. For me, HB would have to either state how the True swinger aligns the clubface versus the manipulated swinger OR ask questions to understand that concept.

To make some progress it takes both sides to work towards clear communication and the goal to understand a concept - I'm open to that - it's not about getting fired up, getting emotional. Important in any forum discussion is agreeing on what topic the discussion will be limited to - who's perspective are we going to dig into? In this case I let the lead post and question determine that and I have stayed the course, because if you don't clearly limit and define the area of discussion then again, there is no way you can come to any agreement. HB in his last post is making a point that is perfectly correct in the context that he is using it - just not the correct context i.e. how a CF aligns the clubface in a true swing. In that context Daryl's post does nothing either.

I understand's OB's adrenalin post - however the effort for cold, clear communication and the effort to stay on topic - would be much better than adding adrenalin to your existing approach. I've tried to clearly define the context and boundaries to my post(s) - I hope others will do the same with their posts and if something is unclear then please ask specific questions until it is clear and I'll try to provide specific answers - so that progress can be made in either showing myself where there is a mistake in my knowledge or logic OR where the person asking the questions understands something that they didn't understand before - when we get to one of those two options then there is a WIN and a purpose for using a forum - otherwise it's a waste of time.

[HungryBear]

O.K. again.

No Risk- No Reward. So here goes.

2 approaches:

1. The COG of the clubhead displaced from the shaft allows CF to aligne thye clubface.

2. The clubface is aligned and held by the flat left hand and is brought into impact with the flat left hand, the left wedge, #3 accumulator etc. all with RHYTHM. And the CF is driving everything. the shaft down the plane, the club head down. ecverything. And that aligns the clubface.

#1 is WRONG, AND I do not think HK ment to convey that- although he did some "experiments" that would trap U into thinking that way.
MY ADVICE- fORGET ALL THIS "SWEET SPOT" STUFF. It is not helpfull.

#2 is correct. HK conveyed that in his discussions of hinges, wedges, rhythm steering, etc.


So YES, from the perspective of thos who hold with #1, it would appear the subject is being changed by those who hold with #2, and vice versa.

The #1 vs #2 debate Is hard but should be made.

I'm done for now.

HB

[MizunoJoe]

I am going to include a link that deals with club design but it contains a paragraph about the "sweet spot" and rotation about the shaft.

http://www.calpoly.edu/~rbrown/MOI.html

Please Note that the author is/was a Prof. in Physics at Cal Tech. And Yess there are errors (such as STERNUM)but they do not effect this analysis.

Read it all but pay particular attention to the paragraph below.



But there is an interesting side story to this that involves the axis of rotation about the shaft. That is, when you place the driver behind the ball at address, the shaft represents another rotation axis that comes into play during the golf swing. As the club is released through the ball on the through-swing, the club head (as well as the shaft) rotates about that axis in order to square the clubface with respect to the intended target line. The larger the club head, the more the mass of the club head is distributed away from the shaft, hence the larger the moment of inertia of the club head about the axis of the shaft. When the club head design approaches the USGA maximum of 5900 g-cm2 for the MOI about the vertical axis through the center of gravity of the club head, the moment of inertia about the shaft itself is considerably larger than that - by a factor of two or more, since the shaft is attached near the heel of the club and is thus removed from the center of mass of the club by five centimeters or so (see the figures below). The larger that moment of inertia the more difficult it would be to rotate the club head square to the target as the club is released on the through-swing. As a consequence, making the moment of inertia about the vertical axis even larger to make the club more forgiving on mis-hits would have a deleterious effect on closing the clubface - and hence on working the ball from right-to-left (for right-handed golfers). As with most engineering design issues, it is always a compromise!

I am sure this will make it harder to understand because it deals with "sweet spot" inertia but it also bakes it clear that it is not of practical us.

I'm done for now.

HB

The professor gets it wrong right out of the gate - the axis of rotation is not the shaft, but a line from PP#3 through the sweetspot - that's a BIG error, because the clubhead does not rotate around the shaft, but rather, around the imaginary sweetspot line, which enables the sweetspot to move perfectly on plane without weaving around like a drunk driver.

So yes, it does make it harder to understand, because it's incorrect.

[Daryl]

The Throwout of CF Aligns the Clubface for "Horizontal Hinging". The Clubhead, Clubshaft and Clubface all rotate about the Hinge, while the Clubface is Aligned to the Horizontal Plane.

So....CF Aligns the Clubface. This is also "True" for Hands Manipulated Swingers.

[HungryBear]

The professor gets it wrong right out of the gate - the axis of rotation is not the shaft, but a line from PP#3 through the sweetspot - that's a BIG error, because the clubhead does not rotate around the shaft, but rather, around the imaginary sweetspot line, which enables the sweetspot to move perfectly on plane without weaving around like a drunk driver.

So yes, it does make it harder to understand, because it's incorrect.

See why discussion can not be had!
I with answer with the same depth of information U provided.
What you said is Just wrong.
I was going to explain it by saying you are a DOPE but that would not fit the rules of the forum so I( will just say, have a good Day.

hb

[HungryBear]

The Throwout of CF Aligns the Clubface for "Horizontal Hinging". The Clubhead, Clubshaft and Clubface all rotate about the Hinge, while the Clubface is Aligned to the Horizontal Plane.

So....CF Aligns the Clubface. This is also "True" for Hands Manipulated Swingers.

Do U disagree with me? If U hold with #1 pleas provide the physics or HK Ref as a start.
hb

[Daryl]

What???? The Professor is talking about "Swivels" and Clubface alignments (although he's incorrect) lol. I thought we were talking about Hinge Actions and Clubface alignment.

[Daryl]

Do U disagree with me? If U hold with #1 pleas provide the physics or HK Ref as a start.
hb

I agree with you.

[HungryBear]

What???? The Professor is talking about "Swivels" and Clubface alignments (although he's incorrect) lol. I thought we were talking about Hinge Actions and Clubface alignment.

Delete trhe Prof. article. Requires too much thought.

I took it out of my post- Want to taslk about it do it with Joe

HB

[HungryBear]

I agree with you.

GREAT.
Lets see where it goes.

HB