hitiing with angled
 

Almost...one little word change...
You PULL the right arm back with right forearm pickup. Everything else, I like.

Re: hitiing with angled
 

I may have missed something or am not understanding/using the correct term

I thought, be it swinger or hitter, there is arm rotation in the backstroke. The difference being the hitter does it gradually to the top and the swinger does it quickly (probably before hip high hands).

So based on what I said, what did I missunderstand or am I just usnig the wrong terms?

Martee:

Brian Manzella talks about this in one of his videos. In hitting, Brian talks about resisting the turning of the forearm on the backswing by trying to keep it perpendicular to the plane. But his pivot makes it look like the forearm has rotated. In swinging there is a 1/4 turn of the forearm so the left hand faces the plane on the backswing.

I probably butchered it but thats what I remember.

Terry

I heard BM position. Yoda had me turning my right hand so it was palm up to the plane. For both hitting and swinging, maybe the hand turn is not the same as the arm turn and that is were my confusion lies. Then again maybe not. I maybe just confusing myself between wrist action and arm, though it seems the forearm does turn.

Re: hitiing with angled
 

That sounds like the explanation Yoda gave me in another thread when I asked about the movement in the Makeover video.

I wonder if channelback is referring to his "left wrist action" feel when commenting on his non rotating arms. When swinging the standard action 10-18-A is used, which involves cocking AND turning where as hitting is only cocking via 10-18-C Single. The 10-18-A swingers action then swivels into impact, the hitters option doesn't. I think the turning part on the backstroke might be what channelback aludes to in his arms comment. Actually i'm pretty sure he is regarding the turn of the left wrist in swinging as "clockwise rotation of the lead arm on the backswing" which is taken from one of his early posts. I'm pretty sure i've seen Leadbetter and Faldo talk many times about left forearm rotation, and their meaning in TGM is simply the left wrist turn. I am also sure as already stated in here by Martee that Yoda said the hitters rotation is gradual and the swingers early. I don't actually think the hitter consciously tries to rotate where the swinger does. Hope i haven't added more fog or got it wrong, posting this made me incubate a bit more by having to refer to my book :)

Left wrist
 

Terry, who knows, you may have indeed "butchered it", but I actually think that your comments above are commonly seen floating around TGM circles.

For those that are interested or trying to "get there"- a couple of thoughts:
1) Nothing in the Golfing Machine describes anything actually turning a 1/4 of a turn
2) If there is somewhere in the book where he describes "the left wrist facing the plane"- then can someone find it in the book, post it, and let's discuss it.
By the way, I think both of the above have the same thing in common- those searching for simplicity- and something specific, in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or stated differently, trying to make a principle where one doesn't exist.

On a completely different note:
My recommendation is to study and learn the book as well as possible- during that process you'll certainly feel that "this is it" and "nobody else knows what their talking about", but ultimately the "Golfing Machine" won't be something different or better than your golf movement or better than someone elses golf movement. It won't be an accumulator or a lever assembly, it will just be your golf movement which you will have a better understanding of fixing or keeping on track if you need to make an adjustment. I think that's what Homer had in mind, besides categorizing and describing the golf movement in Geometrical and Physics terms and then having the player translate that precision into feel- he wanted to have a coherent explanation of any and all swings- that includes the one you're making today- so the Golfing Machine really describes what you're doing today and also how to make it better. For myself I always like to keep it in those terms- otherwise, sometimes I feel like "an octopus or a thing from outer space"- if I am trying to "literally" apply a "Golf Machine" concept - inappropriately. It can be a great book - for "overcooking" your application. But you can't skip that phase of the understanding process either- cause then you would just gloss over it and not really dig it out. OK, now I'm incoherently rambling........- and I'm about ready to hit the delete button because who really wants to hear this- be I'll let it stand.
Mike O.

Here's a great post by galopin from another forum

It goes back to what Yoda often says, that the hands tend to go down to Impact the same way that they go up to the Top. In the backstroke, a Hitter slowly swivels from the takeaway to the Top; he goes back down the same way--a long, slow swivel from the Top to Impact. In contrast, a Swinger completes his backstroke swivel early in the backstroke, and in the downstoke, he quickly swivels from Release Point to Impact.

Shoulder vs. Hands
 

I'm not really qualified to speak on this (or any other) aspect of TGM, but this was an area that gave me a lot of trouble so I'll risk trying to put my feelings into words in the hope that it might help clarify some of the previous replies.

Let's suppose that you're going into the grocery store and you come face to face with Osama bin Laden. Your first thought is to give him a karate chop to his neck, so you pull your left arm back and, keeping your palm facing down to the ground, whack him as hard as you can with the edge of your palm.

Your second thought is that it's a little strange for Osama to be shopping at the same grocery store, so it might be wise not to kill this guy, maybe it'd be safer just to knock him out. So you decide to whack him upside the head with the back of your hand. You pull your left arm back, putting your hand in the same palm-down position, but lower your shoulder slightly so your arm will rotate 90 degrees before you hit him.

The difference is more in the orientation of your shoulder than in the initial position of your hand. To relate this to the question about Hitting vs. Swinging, the hands would be in the same position at the Top (if the Swinger stopped there) but the left shoulder would be oriented differently depending on the desired Hinge Action. At least that's the way it feels to me. :?:

Can't speak to the 1/4 turn, heard it, but don't know where it comes from...

As for the left wrist facing the plane (hopefully we are talking about the same thing) I submit 10-18 (swinging 10-18-A, hitting 10-18-C-2) as to the turn/roll that I was referring too in the backstroke.

What do ya think?