Proper speed.
 

It's OK. I'm wrong.

Depends on how fast/slow the shoulders rotate and how much lag they sustain.

It's not just the speed, it's the on-timed speed with acceleration.

Jerome,

No, I have never tied the band to the ceiling.

Research has shown that the body only contributes 10% of power to the golf swing, whereas the speed of the hands and their actions contribute 90% of power.

Further “transferring” your weight from the back foot to the front foot creates only 2mph of body speed – which only increases clubhead speed if your timing is inch perfect.

In exercising for golf my focus is always on the forearms. This practice was further given endorsement by no less than the 2005 REMAX Long Drive Champ, Sean Fister, when he came to visit in September.

His words to me were: "I don't train anything above the elbow joint. Jack Nicklaus said that I have the fastest hand speed of anyone he has ever seen."



Look at the following attached.


This is a very clear view of the anatomy of the forearm. The most important muscles I feel are those that help cock and uncock the wrists and those that help pronate and supinate.
Work on those :)

I did these exercises plus master the Snap Release 10-24-E only in April of this year and the results have been very very satisfactory.

Video to Share?
 

Do you have a video to share with us? :)

Hand Speed
 

Indeed the muscles you pointed out would cock and uncock the wrists and pronate and supinate. Although muscles of the upper arm would also help in pronation and supination of the forearm- so if you were trying to strengthen those- then you would want to also strengthen the upper arm muscles. However, none of the muscles that you described would move the hands faster through space. So to me, Sean's quote is just another quote that doesn't make any sense or is very unclear.

Comdpa is like the Bruise Lee of Golf ...

HaChaaaaaaaaaaa!

Sorry Mike,

When he related Jack Nicklaus' compliment, he was uncocking and rolling his hands - very quickly. :happy3:

To him , handspeed was the sequenced release of the swinger - uncock and roll.
That said, I agree with you on the role of the upper arm but I still do not completely understand its role in producing clubheadspeed thus have not began isolating them in training yet. I will be most keen to share once I reach a conclusion.

One thing that stuck in my mind about Sean was the size of his Extensor carpi radialis longus and his Pronator teres. They resembled sausages. :happy3:

thanks justin, interesting.

Not to mention the swing mechanics benefits, but from a pure speed standpoint:

The speedstick, momentus, and weighted clubs are isotonic or "dead weight" devices. Meaning when one swings them, on the downswing their own inertia plus gravity is assisting on the downswing. They are probably ok for strength but not real effective for speed IMO. They also fail to meet the 4 laws of specificity for speed training.

Contrast those with the SC. The SC is a variable weight resistance device which provides an overload/resistance on the crucial start of the downswing and thru the impact zone. And it can be swung extremely fast. Much faster than weighted clubs and the speedstick. It is the only training device I know of that meets the 4 laws of specificity for speed training.

Hope this helps.

This same fad and concept of the chains is being used in the Olympic Training Center by Vinny Comiskey who is the head of Sports Medicine. Also, we have many Professional Golf Instructors using it in their teaching programs. A number of Long Drive guys including the BEAST also. A couple of tour players thus far that we know of. It is catching on but from a slower grass roots type of approach. :)

Clarity
 

There is a rhythm to centrifugal force- trying to make it go faster really isn't a viable option. Training "just" the muscles below the elbow- doesn't make any sense at all. Finally, could you identify the research that says the body only provides 10% and also that the transferring of the weight only 2% because both of those "facts" are much like training the muscles just below the elbow- they don't take into account the entire context of the movement. Anotherwords- if I didn't transfer my weight and hit off my back foot- I really wouldn't lose any power?

4 Laws
 

Could you post the 4 laws of specificity for speed training here- thanks. In addition, it would be nice to see the references that you have that supports the logic of these four laws.

Chain Gang
 

Add one more...

Brian Gay
Working with Yoda on the practice tee of The Golden Bear Club at Keene's Pointe
Windermere, Florida

:)

Mike O,

Here are the 4 items trainchain is referring to. I would be interested in any references he may have as well.

1. Movement pattern must be exact or as similar as possible to the athletic motion involved.

2. Contraction velocity must be similar to the event.

3. Contraction force must be higher than the event.

4. Contraction type must be the same.

Bacc

If HK said the #2 Accumulator was the true velocity accumulator than it wouldn't it make sense to train the muscles that govern the uncocking of the wrist?

So, you could hit it 90% as far without moving the body? Surely not...try hitting balls without any shoulder turn and tell me how you go?

I agree the hands are important, but those numbers don't seem to make sense at all....can you point me to the data?

Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying?

Sure thing Mike...check your email. :)
As mentioned, I don't fully comprehend all there is about speed generation.

So far what I have been doing is working very nicely for me. Hope you can link and sort everything out for me in reference to TGM.

Sure thing mate, please PM me your email and I will send you the materials.

I have already tried what you recommended a long time ago and my experience is as below - I would like for you to try what you said first and share the results, more importantly, you can prove or disprove this to YOURSELF, the person that matters most!

With a good strike, I can reach 85-90% of my regular distance with my feet together and/or standing on one leg (left or right)

I can hit a lob wedge about 65 yards with the right hand and 50 yards with the left hand.

When I last hit a driver on my knees some 13 months back, it went about 230 yards through the air - this is without a snap release and speed training. I am not too sure what I can achieve now.

Some months back I heard Mr Kelley quoted (Lynn and Mike O should be able to verify this) before that "you will be very surprised how far you can hit it with little shoulder turn".

Now mate, when you mention "try hitting balls without any shoulder turn", I just do not think it is possible to do a completely zero shoulder turn and yet get my hands high enough.

Being the scientist that I am, I went out to the range to prove Mr. Kelley wrong. In science, to prove a theory, you try to disprove it.

I lifted my arms up allowing some bend in the left arm while keeping my shoulders as square as possible - I got the same 85% to 90% distance when I got a good strike. Due to lack of practice, I was obviously not very consistent with such a move.

For the record, I do not believe that a "90 degree turn of the shoulders" is needful for distance and I don't use it in my procedure. Its not a flexibility issue too - I can do full splits with ease.

The shoulder turn to me is about plane issues. If you have a flat plane angle, you need more turn to get the right shoulder on plane. Vice versa for a steep plane angle. Please reference 10-13-0.

I have also tested myself doing John Daly-esque swings and yes, I do hit my driver further about 8-13 yards, but at the cost of improper contact, wayward direction and back pain.

Food for thought...how far do you think Bruce Lee would hit his driver if he were a 7 marker?

Bruce Lee if correctly trained would probably hit it miles...can't argue there.

I don't think you need 90° turn either, but you need some and you need it to unwind properly to have a truelly powerful swing...it is not all in the forearms.

If you really think 90% power comes from the arms then you should be able to swing, with 0 shoulder movement and hit it 90 of the distance...not off one leg, not off knees, not 1 handed, and definately not with a little bit of turn so the hands can get high enough. If the power comes from the hands they should not have to get any higher.

This is not meant to be an attack, but I just can not get my brain around this at all.

You can do a test,

Take a long piece of light wood extend from your shoulder and out till 40 inch outward or so like a golf stick. and swing with your body as fast as you possibly can. How fast can you go?

Now take a golf shaft and whip it as fast as you can. with one hand and wrist. Or even better with just forearms and arms. not forgeting wrist is also a power accumulator . now with the wrist and forearms around the elbow .. swish swish swish.


Common illusions, but arm provide most speed, body not so much speed. Our core are not design for speed, they are for support and strength . You need speed to hit far. Force = mv 2 .

In Body controlled hands , Physics Precedes
In Hand controlled Pivot, Geometry precedes.

But you must learn to use BOTH. for maximum power. And i dont mean your body should turn faster , It really doesnt hit the ball much further no matter how fast it is turned. It only make the person look like a Hacker.

And Effort is not equal to power.

Freddie doesnt seem to swing that fast but hits it a mile doesnt he? Everyone followed the concept of body swing and swing easy, but did they get the speed? Everyone will be hitting a mile by now using "what made sense" and what is sold by so called the gurus of golf. Their student are not really known for length.

Did u see Ocha? she is small, but she whips! look at the snap! Look at her distance !

Thanks
 

Bacc,
Thanks for the four laws- I'll wait for the references.

Doesn't sound like swinging to me though...
 

Surely for the swinger the arms and the hands job is to transmitt CF. To do this surely they need to be relaxed, i would think any muscular effort would be disruptive.

As far as Freddie goes to me he's the epitome of a swinger efficiently transfering CF through relaxed arms and wrists.

Warning
 

I reference my own post...

I have submitted the said research to my friend Mike O and Toolish for review.

With their permission, I will post their comments about it. I am not sure I can post the article sent to them because of intellectual property etc.

As mentioned to them, I stand ready to be corrected in the face of evidence disproving what I sent them. I am here to learn as much as the rest.

Though I may not have all the answers, one thing I know is that once I was short, now I am long doing "my" forearm exercises. :)

One theory that I proposed to Mike is a possible "spillover" effect of my forearm exercises to my upper arms and torso. Not so sure about that...I will post some pictures of the exercises soon.

Thanks to any that will chime in and offer more insights.

The grip tightens significantly (assuming the golfer doesn't have a death grip at address) by the time impact is reached involuntarily so as to stabilize the club. When the club is swinging over 100mph you don't want to have your Great Grandmother's grip on it, otherwise the club would go flying. Most people cannot force themselves to swing faster than their grip strength would allow, doing so would mean the club would leave your hands. Research that was published in Golf Magazine a few years ago indicates that people with more grip strength swing the club faster.

As an aside, I think it is entirely possible that some of Comdpa's swing speed increase came as a result of his grip strength catching up to his ability to apply force with his body. According to Bob Bush's research 70% of a golfer's power comes from the right shoulder. Certainly a person can hit the ball over 30% of their actual distance with just the left arm, but the most efficient way to swing a club is considered to apply most of the force with the right arm and shoulder (my interpretation of Bush's research).

Matt

Matt, i agree with what you say about the grip, i think it's very important to have strong hands. Primarily because strong hands means you can have a secure, stable grip and retain relaxed muscles.

In my post i was really talking about how i can't see how strengthing muscles to physically uncock the wrists faster can help a swinger. Also i certaintly don't see how Freddy can be used as an example of a golfer who uses this technique and not his pivot to create power.

I really don't know what my opinion is of working the muscles below the elbow to perform more quickly. This is nothing I had ever thought about prior to Comdpa referencing it. As far as Freddie is concerned, I would argue he is able to swing that quickly, allow CF to increase his swing speed, because he is able to grip the club firmly. This cannot be done without serious forearm muscle contraction. Some of the guys with really fast swing speed and low body fat percentage (Sergio and Villegas are great examples). They have tremendous contraction of the forearms at the bottom. Perhaps the key is to relax the arms and allow the force of the swing to contract them. Perhaps this would provide the Freddie look of being relaxed and being a "slave" to CF.

Matt

Sure, In the early 90's Dr. Digby Sale did a study that found for an exercise to increase speed it should meet the 4 laws of specificity.


1.Movement pattern must be exact or as similar as possible to the athletic motion involved. Movement pattern is simple to see. Pulling a rubber band is not as effective as the speed chain in strengthen one’s swing simply because the movement pattern is too disimilar. Rubber band resistance has a linear path, whereas swinging a golf club is a circular, rotational movement on many planes. Same thing with bench pressing or using weights.

2.Contraction velocity must be similar to the event. Velocity is easy to see. Turning with or throwing a medicine ball is very slow in comparison to the swinging of a golf club.
Also, weighted clubs do not meet this criteria simply becuase it cannot be swung fast. Another analogy would be why a sprinter does not train by running marathons.

3.Contraction force must be higher than the event. Force is difficult to measure without the use of high tech biomechanical equipment. But understanding that one needs to overload somewhat to get a strength benefit is logical. The problem arises when one overloads too much and velocity slows down, which in turn decreases the amount of force. This is also the problem with weighted clubs or weight lifting. The weight is so high that velocity cannot be attained.

4.Contraction type must be the same. Contraction type is extremely important since explosive movements use the stretch-shorten cycle. The stretch-shorten cycle is the
short, rapid stretching of the muscles prior to a forceful contraction and is present in all explosive movements. Proper weightlifting techniques discourage this type of contraction.

Kelvin Miyahira (my partner), who was quoted in post #1 invented the speed chain after 25 years of research into this field. Our speed chains defy the laws of gravity by creating a resistance
that moves and retains its resistance along any angle up or down, side-to-side, curved path, linear, or rotation that the human body can produce. This is essential for training the complex movements of a golf swing. Try obtaining that same type of resistance with a rubber band, isokinetic device, pulley system or free weights. Not possible.

Hope this gives you a better idea.

Thanks,

Z

Speed Chain Purchases
 

There have been a number of inquiries regarding purchase of the SpeedChain. LBG is not yet prepared to offer these through its own Pro Shop. However, we have made arrangements for direct purchase through Z2Golf and its principal, Zane Swenson (TrainChain). I've asked Zane to post the purchase details for those interested. Also, we've arranged for LBG members will receive a 10 percent discount on the retail cost (not including shipping). :)

Regarding whether or not the Chain delivers the results promised, I have not been working with it long enough to know if I've gained any additional clubhead speed. I do know that I experience a sense of lag and drag as with no other training aid I've tried. And, I have never experienced the sustained feel of #3 Lag Pressure Point Pressure as deep into the Follow-Through and Finish as I do with the SpeedChain. For me, if these two benefits are all I get out of it, then that is quite enough. They will translate into increased distance, even without an increase in Clubhead Speed (which, if it comes, I will consider a 'freebie').

Yoda,

Will their be a speedchain demo at The Hombre?

I would like to see that bad hombre at the bad hombre!!!

todd

The SpeedChain Cometh
 

You bet, Todd. It's coming in its own truck! :laughing9

I own a swing chain. In fact, it is my second since I upgraded to a heavier size. When I began using it about a year ago, my swing speed was 96 mph and would sometimes top 103. Now, my swing speed is 105 and will sometimes top 111. This is the only training device I use. I love it.

Swingchain OJT
 

Good stuff, exgolfpro. Thanks!

How do you use it? For example, number of reps per set, time per set, etc. Also, do you prefer continuous motion or individual 'explosive' Motions?

That don't seem right to me.

...

IMO, I don't think any of this (below) proves much of anything.

You are still using your Pivot here. It is still contributing. IMO you are just sacrificing Balance and thus must slow the pivot some.

Quite the achievement.

Still using Pivot tho.

Maybe if your shoulders were pinned to a wall and then you hit the ball....

Quite the achievement. Still using Pivot.

This is true. Ur still using Pivot Thrust tho. (I think this is what it's called)

Still using Pivot Thrust, no?

Very impressive!

I can touch my toes with ease.

Splits hurt my groin.

Chainsize
 

Is it too difficult to start with the next level heavier chain that may be initially outside of your current swing speed...maybe the progression isn't as fast if starting with the heavier chain?

static contraction
 

Parts that don't move doesn't means they're not making the move.

Depends what you're after. If you want a modest increase or simply maintain your current, choose the lighter model.

I bought the next size up cause I was after larger gains and I'm pretty athletic. The heavier model wasn't a bother for me anyways.


Another thing that was relly noticeable for me when using the SC for the first time was how s..l..o..w.. my takeaway was. If you don't have a little pace to your takeaway, the chain just hangs vertical and you can't load up much resistance.

Thanks Lynn. For those interested you can go to www.z2golf.com and click on the speed chain page. Mention that you are a LBG forum member and you will get the discount.

By the way Lynn, nice pic of Brian Gay.:) I watched him on the range for quite a while in Milwaukee. Love his swing, no wasted motion in that golf swing!

Z

That is an excellent point sonic. It is important to keep the chain tight throughout the swing. If one has an extremely slow backswing, it will produce slack in the chain. Same thing happens if one has a big pause in the transition from backswing to downswing.

It is really interesting to watch really good players swing the chain for the first time, as well as high handicappers. The good player swings it really good pretty much right away. The higher handicapper struggles a little to start with because their swing is somewhat out of whack. But they learn when they stick with it.

Z

I have owned a SC since March...
I used it consistently for about 3 months as weather permitted, outside on my lawn...
I did the continuous 5-10 rep method, as hard as I could...5 sets, 5-10 rep method..
Before SC I was around 102-105 with an occasional 107-110...
After using the SC just a couple of weeks....my mechanics got much better very quickly...went to 110-112 with the occasional 117...
All of the above swing speeds were measured with the Swing Speed radar with tempo timer...
Well summer brought a 12 week project that shut down my golf game completely...
But now its time for the winter off season training...
My goal is to get up to 120 smoothly, powerfully and consistently...
The SC is the only golf specific training aid I will use…
I lift weights in the gym twice a week, this combined with the SC should get me to my goal…

Thanks

Richard

Day 10 Results
 

Okay, I recorded 10 "playing" swings with the 7 iron and driver 10 days ago when I started using the chain...

Driver was 99-102 with a max of 108.
7 Iron was 70-73 with a max of 75.

10 days later...after doing 5 sets of 10 continuous reps every other day...

Driver is 103-108 with a max of 112.
7 iron is 75-77 with a max of 81.

All swing speeds were measured with the Swing Speed Radar w/ Tempo Timer.

I'm not ready to anoint the chains just yet...but I'm certainly encouraged by the results thus far.

Bacc

Source of speed a long post
 

I have just started working out with the speedchain as yoda has said the lag and feel of the chains is remarkable. But like others on this forum I questioned if it work for me since I have pivot issues . I decided to call a 70 year old instructor who specializes on clubhead speed. That 70 year old can swing the club now at 127 mph!! I told him about my disability and the inability to rotate my hips and that I could not see how I could be able to get the speed I needed. His answer was speed is generated by the arms and hands. The faster you move them in both directions on plane the longer the ball will go. He uses 3 different types of training to build your speed up. The first is the swing chain which has been discussed. The second is a device called the xlr8r (accelerator) which is shaft with a ball on the end of it that has velcro on half of the ball. You swing the club as fast as you can and hit a pad that has velcro on it and has some resistance. If you swing the club on plane with a square clubface the club will stick and you must try to complete the followthru. You use the speed radar with the tempo and you work on speeding the tempo, making consistent contact and ending in a proper finish. In minutes when I tried this I increased my clubhead speed 10 mph. The resistance of the pad really makes you active muscles you do not normally use and the quicker tempo has been shown to correlate to distance. Fred couple Tempo is as fast as the best of them he just swings so smoothly it looks slow.

Thus both devices the swing chain and the xlr8r are devices that you swing fast with resistance in effect. The swing chain is constant the xlr8r is after impact so you naturally accelerate through or you wont't finish with the pad over the back. Besides these benfits Ben prefers this product because he believes people get the hit instinct and casting problems etc. when there is a ball there .

Finally he is working with a shaft with just surgical tubing at the end and you swing that like a whip. For those who think the 2mph rotation of the hips generates the power just swing that stick and focus on rotation versus arms and hand speed it will be clear what will make it snap the fastest.

Finally Ben has had people generate more speed swinging on stools with only arm and hand movements . As ben states the number one purpose of the body is to be a stable base to support the swinging motion.

Bens style is unique but he gets results. I am not preaching you see him I am just trying to say that he has a number of success stories in this area and if he believes and teaches and gets results by saying just swing those arms and hands as fast as you can you will train yourself to hit the ball furthur than you thought possible. By the way when when I video my swing There is no way when I look at the video that I can tell that when I swing my arms and thus my hands that I am not rotating my core and turning my shoulders and when I finish my chest is at the target that you can tell this was a direct result of just moving the hands. Well maybe that is what hands controlled pivot is all about.

Ernest jones in swing the clubhead stated that if you swing the clubhead per his definition that all the body movement and actions that happen are just the result of the proper swinging motion and many of his students did very well. A number of professionals do give credit for much of their success just from this book.

Well I know this information will not satisfy most of the people but then tell me why Tiger Woods and VJ singh hit the ball about the same distance and the pivot speed of Woods is much faster than Vj's.

Also there are 4 accumulators 3 of which relate to the arms and hands. Also why was the body one given the last number.

Just food for thought

Dave