Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93659)

OB and others - here again IF YOU DO NOT DEFINE YOUR TERMS - confusion will result. Grip Rotation IS NOT "Manipulation". If it were - you'd want to provide your definition of "manipulation" that would subsume all of the instances used in the book.

Let's give people a break for a minute - the book is terribly written - so you have a "get out of jail free card" - for not understanding some of the concepts. With that said - people go for years on these forums having no clue of the concepts - it requires some effort, motivation and precision if you want to understand what he is saying.

BOOK QUOTE-In red are my additional comments for clarification. I've highlighted in Orange his sections that my red highlighed comments refer to.
THE GRIP

7-2 GRIP TYPES Each Grip Type employs a different Hand-to-Basic-Plane relationship (2-G) and can be applied to any Basic Grip – by Hitters only – Active Lag Pressure (6-C-2-0). Because for Impact Clubface alignment control, Hitters should rotate their Grip (That is to clearly identify where you want to arrive at impact you should always have a vertical lead hand when you grip the club - becuase that is readily identified. So from your straight away ball location if you move the ball back to create a draw by keeping the face at the target - draw becuase now you have more divergence between the clubhead path and the face (clubhead more more to the right as you move it back on the circle). Also, note the shaft will be leaning more forward at this new location before and after you grip the club - so at this new location you make sure that you grip the club with a vertical (karate chop) lead hand. Let's note one difference here so you understand the picture that I am painting - if you grip the club at lowpoint - below the left shoulder with the shaft and the left arm vertical - then the vertical (karate chop) back of the lead hand faces the target - as you move the ball back and grip the club with the vertical left hand - the back of the hand faces more to the right of the targetbut not their Plane Line at Address (3-F-5, 7-8), while (True)Swingers should rotate their Plane Line but not their Grip (7-1, 6-B-3-0). For (True)Swingers the results of Ball Location changes on any one Plane Line are the opposite of those for Hitters (and Manipulative Swingers). Unless, of course, there is Hand manipulation – intentional or unintentional (Notice the separation he's making here - above he's talked about grip rotation - now he's making a separate statement regarding something else - Hand Manipulation - see my definition in my previous post). Then both procedures will have Hitting alignments and Ball response. And be Ball-related rather than Body-related.

Now, if someone has an interest in learning this section - feel free to ask questions and work from my perspective - until you uncover an inconsistency in my perspective. That's the approach. At least that's how I learned the Golfing Machine - I looked for inconsistencies - I said OK if I run with you in regards to that particular idea - then what does this mean over here, kept learning pieces and then if related pieces didn't match - ask additional questions. Crucially important is using Homer Kelley's approach and phrase - "You must maintain the identies of these things" and then they don't change - they are the same no matter what - that's true no only for the laws of force and motion but equally true for the concepts that you use and their associated definitions.

So my approach would be to not take your perspective - and then ignore the other persons post or think OH he's wrong there. At least some of the time you need to run with the other persons logic and then see if it runs into contradictions.

If one were really wanting to understand this section - later - we'd need to continue through the paragraphs of 7-2, a beautiful opportunity for someone that wants to understand it.

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93659)

OB and others - here again IF YOU DO NOT DEFINE YOUR TERMS - confusion will result. Grip Rotation IS NOT "Manipulation".

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 93661)

Re the Yoda quote in post #54, "Hand Manipulation is accomplished at Impact Fix".

Yoda is wrong?

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93660)

With your indulgence: "It's like Deja-Vu all over again" Yogi Berra.

I agree, but, with the prior noted exception - posts #48 and %53
Again my #1 would be "true swinger" and #2 "manipulative.

I have said #1 does not exist. The "true swinger" alignments are a SPECIAL CASE of manipulative hands. The FLAT LEFT HAND controls. Always. That would be manipulation.
HB

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93664)

It's curious - the lack of questions asked on this forum - in order to understand other's posts. Anyone have a theory on that? (Oops a question!)

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93664)

HB,
I was eventually going to respond to your post 48 and 53 and still plan to do so, however to be honest, that might take a number of posts for us to get on the same page so I've delayed doing that for when I have the energy and motivation.

No Problem, thanks

On another front - above in the quote where you say "#1 doesn't exist". I just want to be clear that you understand the nature of my posts. I'm just relaying my understanding of the concepts in the book. I'm not making any comment about usefulness, if they exist, or anything in regards to application. It's as if one were to start by understanding the concepts and then another stage might be you learn more other information beyond those concepts, and then another stage might be that you disagree or have other perspectives than the Golfing Machine writings. I'm just posting on a limited perspective - stage one - "this is what he means". No response needed - just wanted to make sure you understood my approach here.

I understand

I know you were just re-iterating your point - no problem with that - I just wanted to clarify the limited nature and purpose of any of my posts.

It's curious - the lack of questions asked on this forum - in order to understand other's posts. Anyone have a theory on that? (Oops a question!)

Theory- forums tend to be places "visitors" search for information AND tend twords making speecher rather than have conversations. That seems to be the nature of the beast.

Finally, a question regarding your quote above HB.

"I have said #1 does not exist. The "true swinger" alignments are a SPECIAL CASE of manipulative hands."

As I understand it. The "true" swinger is defined where clubface alignment is automatic via CF and is confined to a single impact alignment by the physics of CF for streight-away flight. I (my points in this discussion not TGM)see it as a alignment that doesn't require manipulation (special) but still is Flat Left Hand clubface control.

I'm not being a "smarta..." here - just making sure I understand your perspective or clarifying your post. What alignments of the theoretical True Swinger are a SPECIAL CASE of manipulative hands - can you clarify that for me. In other words - in what way and what alignments are a Special Case for the concept of True Swinging?

I tried to answer the SPECIAL CASE of manipulation above. It is also likely that I am not communicating a clearly as I am thinking. So ask away.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93663)

Since you asked the question I'll answer it.
Anyone can be wrong - and when you find out that you are wrong that's a good thing!
Specifically what you are referencing - the quote in post 54 - I didn't reference it as wrong at the time - because it was only a partial quote and I felt that after reading it - most likely in the context of the question that came before it (that i couldn't see) and the entire context of the written answer/comment (which I couldn't see) that chances are it was more likely to be appropriate than wrong for that particular full context of his post. To some degree I feel like that was a correct assumption after reading the link in post 83.

On a broader perspective - could Lynn be wrong - absolutely, could I be wrong - absolutely - any of us can be wrong - big deal. The real issue is not asking if someone is wrong - it's using your own mind to ask the appropriate questions, understand all or as many of the facts as possible and then determine what is right, from there as a side note you could see who falls where if you had an interest.

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93649)

One major difficulty with horizontal hinging and hitting.
Rotating pressure point #1 . Because the thrust is on plane, the rotation at point of appplication is disruptive for me.

HB

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 93669)

My intent was to ask "Is this correct or not", not to make any specific person look right or wrong. The statement "Hand Manipulation is accomplished at Impact Fix" is surely context independent. He didn't say "could be accomplished", but rather, "IS accomplished", which implies that any and all manipulation occurs at Impact Fix. After all this, I still don't know what Homer meant by Hand Manipulation, and it's hard to believe that doing something with the hands during the swing in order to alter club face alignment, is not Hand Manipulation.

Originally Posted by Bumpy (Post 93667)

Your effort to reconstitute 7-2 makes a different kind of sense. I am in the incubator stage regarding your annotations and intend to follow up. In the meantime, I would ask that you sit on these two eggs, first, the exact nature of CF alignment activity, then second, what is disruptive to that activity.

Bumpy

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93675)

HB Quote: "I have said #1 does not exist. The "true swinger" alignments are a SPECIAL CASE of manipulative hands."

As I understand it. The "true" swinger is defined where clubface alignment is automatic via CF and is confined to a single impact alignment by the physics of CF for streight-away flight.

Separation is intentional- Note; I do not put "left hand" into Def because I believe the TGM intent is to say cf aligns the clubface and incidently also asligns the left hand. a special case.

I (my points in this discussion not TGM)see it as a alignment that doesn't require manipulation (special) but still is Flat Left Hand clubface control.

My point is that the laft hand is controled. even for the "true swinger".
Your view - as you stated clearly above is that in a true swinging procedure (as you correctly identified it per TGM) you see it as a clubface alignment that is under the control of the flat left wrist through impact but doesn't require manipulation - now if I quoted you correctly (with my additional words for clarification in Orange) then that wouldn't appear to me to make any sense if you used my definition of "manipulation". Your feedback is invited :)

My definition: "Hand Manipulation requires one to identify the lead hand condition (For example Flat, Level and Vertical)

MY problem here- only FLAT- Because level is controled by the shaft on the plane and vertical is a function of hinging (the vertical would then be to the associated plane)

and the corresponding clubface alignment intended for impact via impact fix AND then if one has some intent, focus, awareness to return to that lead hand location to control the clubface alignment at impact"

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93659)

OB and others - here again IF YOU DO NOT DEFINE YOUR TERMS - confusion will result. Grip Rotation IS NOT "Manipulation". If it were - you'd want to provide your definition of "manipulation" that would subsume all of the instances used in the book.

Let's give people a break for a minute - the book is terribly written - so you have a "get out of jail free card" - for not understanding some of the concepts. With that said - people go for years on these forums having no clue of the concepts - it requires some effort, motivation and precision if you want to understand what he is saying.

BOOK QUOTE-In red are my additional comments for clarification. I've highlighted in Orange his sections that my red highlighed comments refer to.
THE GRIP

7-2 GRIP TYPES Each Grip Type employs a different Hand-to-Basic-Plane relationship (2-G) and can be applied to any Basic Grip – by Hitters only – Active Lag Pressure (6-C-2-0). Because for Impact Clubface alignment control, Hitters should rotate their Grip (That is to clearly identify where you want to arrive at impact you should always have a vertical lead hand when you grip the club - becuase that is readily identified. So from your straight away ball location if you move the ball back to create a draw by keeping the face at the target - draw becuase now you have more divergence between the clubhead path and the face (clubhead more more to the right as you move it back on the circle). Also, note the shaft will be leaning more forward at this new location before and after you grip the club - so at this new location you make sure that you grip the club with a vertical (karate chop) lead hand. Let's note one difference here so you understand the picture that I am painting - if you grip the club at lowpoint - below the left shoulder with the shaft and the left arm vertical - then the vertical (karate chop) back of the lead hand faces the target - as you move the ball back and grip the club with the vertical left hand - the back of the hand faces more to the right of the targetbut not their Plane Line at Address (3-F-5, 7-8), while (True)Swingers should rotate their Plane Line but not their Grip (7-1, 6-B-3-0). For (True)Swingers the results of Ball Location changes on any one Plane Line are the opposite of those for Hitters (and Manipulative Swingers). Unless, of course, there is Hand manipulation – intentional or unintentional (Notice the separation he's making here - above he's talked about grip rotation - now he's making a separate statement regarding something else - Hand Manipulation - see my definition in my previous post). Then both procedures will have Hitting alignments and Ball response. And be Ball-related rather than Body-related.

Now, if someone has an interest in learning this section - feel free to ask questions and work from my perspective - until you uncover an inconsistency in my perspective. That's the approach. At least that's how I learned the Golfing Machine - I looked for inconsistencies - I said OK if I run with you in regards to that particular idea - then what does this mean over here, kept learning pieces and then if related pieces didn't match - ask additional questions. Crucially important is using Homer Kelley's approach and phrase - "You must maintain the identies of these things" and then they don't change - they are the same no matter what - that's true no only for the laws of force and motion but equally true for the concepts that you use and their associated definitions.

So my approach would be to not take your perspective - and then ignore the other persons post or think OH he's wrong there. At least some of the time you need to run with the other persons logic and then see if it runs into contradictions.

If one were really wanting to understand this section - later - we'd need to continue through the paragraphs of 7-2, a beautiful opportunity for someone that wants to understand it.

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93680)

HB,
As the thread winds down - the quote below of my defintiion of "Manipulation" with your comment in between (blue) provided me with the most interest in responding.

My definition: "Hand Manipulation requires one to identify the lead hand condition (For example Flat, Level and Vertical)
MY problem here- only FLAT- Because level is controled by the shaft on the plane and vertical is a function of hinging (the vertical would then be to the associated plane)
and the corresponding clubface alignment intended for impact via impact fix AND then if one has some intent, focus, awareness to return to that lead hand location to control the clubface alignment at impact"

OK - when you say MY problem here - I'm assuming you are taking on your frame of reference and not the Golfing Machine frame of reference. However, I wasn't sure if MY problem here - was MY problem based on my understanding of the Golfing Machine or MY problem here from my theory.

As I stated before - it's tough enough for someone to follow me in understanding the Golfing Machine concepts - if I added my personal theory, thoughts - it would really be confusing. So I stay on the Golfing Machine Frame of Reference when posting.

1) Although I could have put in - any grip type in my defintion as an example- Homer preferred grip was Flat, Level and Vertical - because all of those are visually identifiable with precision - as opposed to a curved line or angles which are not- without using measurement instruments.

2) Regardless of lie angle - he would always want the grip taken with LEVEL lead hand position.

3) Regardless of hinge action employed he would always want you taking the grip at impact fix with the a Vertical Lead Hand position and returning to impact with it Vertical - hinging takes place after that (during impact).

4) If you define your face and hand positions at impact fix - and then when you arrived at impact, if you changed the shaft angle or arrived at a different location than vertical then you would have changed the clubface alignment.

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93713)

Now that the thread is done- almost done - :

Looking back-the thread has almost 100 post over a period of 10 days- what can we take from all those posts? (looking for that executive summary if U have one)

HB

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93713)

Now that the thread is done- almost done - :

1. Did the original , Bumpy, questions get answered?

2. Was there anything discussed that gave you an Ah-Ha moment?

3. Looking back-the thread has almost 100 post over a period of 10 days- what can we take from all those posts? (looking for that executive summary if U have one)



HB

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93789)

Bumpy-
you edited my post within the quote. That is WRONG. Even when U are answering the post. It confuses the reader because U do not state what U are doing. Then You add an outside the quote reply.
HB

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93790)

HB,
I understand your concern - for what it's worth - given that Bumpy put his comments in blue - it was clear to me that those were not your comments. (Assuming I'm correct on that and the intent of your post)

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93790)

HB,
I understand your concern - for what it's worth - given that Bumpy put his comments in blue - it was clear to me that those were not your comments. (Assuming I'm correct on that and the intent of your post)

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93792)

Your right- My Bad- Of all the posters I should be the last to comment on such minor things.

HB