Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93659)

OB and others - here again IF YOU DO NOT DEFINE YOUR TERMS - confusion will result. Grip Rotation IS NOT "Manipulation". If it were - you'd want to provide your definition of "manipulation" that would subsume all of the instances used in the book.

Let's give people a break for a minute - the book is terribly written - so you have a "get out of jail free card" - for not understanding some of the concepts. With that said - people go for years on these forums having no clue of the concepts - it requires some effort, motivation and precision if you want to understand what he is saying.

BOOK QUOTE-In red are my additional comments for clarification. I've highlighted in Orange his sections that my red highlighed comments refer to.
THE GRIP

7-2 GRIP TYPES Each Grip Type employs a different Hand-to-Basic-Plane relationship (2-G) and can be applied to any Basic Grip – by Hitters only – Active Lag Pressure (6-C-2-0). Because for Impact Clubface alignment control, Hitters should rotate their Grip (That is to clearly identify where you want to arrive at impact you should always have a vertical lead hand when you grip the club - becuase that is readily identified. So from your straight away ball location if you move the ball back to create a draw by keeping the face at the target - draw becuase now you have more divergence between the clubhead path and the face (clubhead more more to the right as you move it back on the circle). Also, note the shaft will be leaning more forward at this new location before and after you grip the club - so at this new location you make sure that you grip the club with a vertical (karate chop) lead hand. Let's note one difference here so you understand the picture that I am painting - if you grip the club at lowpoint - below the left shoulder with the shaft and the left arm vertical - then the vertical (karate chop) back of the lead hand faces the target - as you move the ball back and grip the club with the vertical left hand - the back of the hand faces more to the right of the targetbut not their Plane Line at Address (3-F-5, 7-8), while (True)Swingers should rotate their Plane Line but not their Grip (7-1, 6-B-3-0). For (True)Swingers the results of Ball Location changes on any one Plane Line are the opposite of those for Hitters (and Manipulative Swingers). Unless, of course, there is Hand manipulation – intentional or unintentional (Notice the separation he's making here - above he's talked about grip rotation - now he's making a separate statement regarding something else - Hand Manipulation - see my definition in my previous post). Then both procedures will have Hitting alignments and Ball response. And be Ball-related rather than Body-related.

Now, if someone has an interest in learning this section - feel free to ask questions and work from my perspective - until you uncover an inconsistency in my perspective. That's the approach. At least that's how I learned the Golfing Machine - I looked for inconsistencies - I said OK if I run with you in regards to that particular idea - then what does this mean over here, kept learning pieces and then if related pieces didn't match - ask additional questions. Crucially important is using Homer Kelley's approach and phrase - "You must maintain the identies of these things" and then they don't change - they are the same no matter what - that's true no only for the laws of force and motion but equally true for the concepts that you use and their associated definitions.

So my approach would be to not take your perspective - and then ignore the other persons post or think OH he's wrong there. At least some of the time you need to run with the other persons logic and then see if it runs into contradictions.

If one were really wanting to understand this section - later - we'd need to continue through the paragraphs of 7-2, a beautiful opportunity for someone that wants to understand it.

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93659)

OB and others - here again IF YOU DO NOT DEFINE YOUR TERMS - confusion will result. Grip Rotation IS NOT "Manipulation".

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 93661)

Re the Yoda quote in post #54, "Hand Manipulation is accomplished at Impact Fix".

Yoda is wrong?

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93660)

With your indulgence: "It's like Deja-Vu all over again" Yogi Berra.

I agree, but, with the prior noted exception - posts #48 and %53
Again my #1 would be "true swinger" and #2 "manipulative.

I have said #1 does not exist. The "true swinger" alignments are a SPECIAL CASE of manipulative hands. The FLAT LEFT HAND controls. Always. That would be manipulation.
HB

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93664)

It's curious - the lack of questions asked on this forum - in order to understand other's posts. Anyone have a theory on that? (Oops a question!)

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93664)

HB,
I was eventually going to respond to your post 48 and 53 and still plan to do so, however to be honest, that might take a number of posts for us to get on the same page so I've delayed doing that for when I have the energy and motivation.

No Problem, thanks

On another front - above in the quote where you say "#1 doesn't exist". I just want to be clear that you understand the nature of my posts. I'm just relaying my understanding of the concepts in the book. I'm not making any comment about usefulness, if they exist, or anything in regards to application. It's as if one were to start by understanding the concepts and then another stage might be you learn more other information beyond those concepts, and then another stage might be that you disagree or have other perspectives than the Golfing Machine writings. I'm just posting on a limited perspective - stage one - "this is what he means". No response needed - just wanted to make sure you understood my approach here.

I understand

I know you were just re-iterating your point - no problem with that - I just wanted to clarify the limited nature and purpose of any of my posts.

It's curious - the lack of questions asked on this forum - in order to understand other's posts. Anyone have a theory on that? (Oops a question!)

Theory- forums tend to be places "visitors" search for information AND tend twords making speecher rather than have conversations. That seems to be the nature of the beast.

Finally, a question regarding your quote above HB.

"I have said #1 does not exist. The "true swinger" alignments are a SPECIAL CASE of manipulative hands."

As I understand it. The "true" swinger is defined where clubface alignment is automatic via CF and is confined to a single impact alignment by the physics of CF for streight-away flight. I (my points in this discussion not TGM)see it as a alignment that doesn't require manipulation (special) but still is Flat Left Hand clubface control.

I'm not being a "smarta..." here - just making sure I understand your perspective or clarifying your post. What alignments of the theoretical True Swinger are a SPECIAL CASE of manipulative hands - can you clarify that for me. In other words - in what way and what alignments are a Special Case for the concept of True Swinging?

I tried to answer the SPECIAL CASE of manipulation above. It is also likely that I am not communicating a clearly as I am thinking. So ask away.

Thanks

Originally Posted by Mike O (Post 93663)

Since you asked the question I'll answer it.
Anyone can be wrong - and when you find out that you are wrong that's a good thing!
Specifically what you are referencing - the quote in post 54 - I didn't reference it as wrong at the time - because it was only a partial quote and I felt that after reading it - most likely in the context of the question that came before it (that i couldn't see) and the entire context of the written answer/comment (which I couldn't see) that chances are it was more likely to be appropriate than wrong for that particular full context of his post. To some degree I feel like that was a correct assumption after reading the link in post 83.

On a broader perspective - could Lynn be wrong - absolutely, could I be wrong - absolutely - any of us can be wrong - big deal. The real issue is not asking if someone is wrong - it's using your own mind to ask the appropriate questions, understand all or as many of the facts as possible and then determine what is right, from there as a side note you could see who falls where if you had an interest.

Originally Posted by HungryBear (Post 93649)

One major difficulty with horizontal hinging and hitting.
Rotating pressure point #1 . Because the thrust is on plane, the rotation at point of appplication is disruptive for me.

HB

Originally Posted by MizunoJoe (Post 93669)

My intent was to ask "Is this correct or not", not to make any specific person look right or wrong. The statement "Hand Manipulation is accomplished at Impact Fix" is surely context independent. He didn't say "could be accomplished", but rather, "IS accomplished", which implies that any and all manipulation occurs at Impact Fix. After all this, I still don't know what Homer meant by Hand Manipulation, and it's hard to believe that doing something with the hands during the swing in order to alter club face alignment, is not Hand Manipulation.