ELBOW
 

Do you see more SWINGERS employing the 10-3-B (Pitch or Slap) right elbow position at IMPACT or 10-3-A (Punch)? I see a fair number of Swingers that use 10-3-A(Punch) or something very close to that, for Swinging. (Punch= an elbow position that is more at the Side of the right hip)
Nearly all Hitters use "A", but I don't believe that the use of "A" automatically makes them Hitters.

Jim Furyk, a Swinger, APPEARS to nearly get into a 10-3-C(Push) position at IMPACT.

Now... I'm not sure it is of much value to use "B" for Hitting, but it may be.
What do you think about this?

A lot of it has to do with wrist action and startdown. If you use Standard wrist action and have the left wrist Turned on-plane at startup, then the right elbow will gravitate towards being more down and "in front" throughout the stroke. On the other hand, if you employ Single wrist action and do not Turn to the plane at startup, then the right elbow will move more "behind" you.

If you get out of your chair and practice this you can see it very clearly. Take an address position, and use a right forearm pickup to transport each wrist condition to the top. First, just keep the left wrist vertical and use the right forearm to take it to the top. Then go back to address position, Turn the left wrist on-plane, and pickup to the top. Notice how the right elbow wants to move differently in each case.

Second point is how you're moving the club coming down. If you're using right arm thrust, the elbow will want to stay back and PUNCH. If you're karate chopping downplane and delaying it for a while, the right elbow will want to move down and in front into the PITCH position.

In the case of Furyk as you mentioned, he seems to be using more of a Single wrist action as he takes it back, no? Shaft arrives at the top a bit steeper than with most Tour players. No roll of Angled Hinge action in the backstroke. Punch elbow position. Then he just drops and rotates and pulls the club down.

Re: ELBOW
 

I believe Furyk has been identified as a Hitter previously on one of the tgm boards. Someone mentioned his driver clubface being being set up a few degrees closed.

This is a post full of good info! Nice one.

Elbow
 

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Very good post Matt!!! The WRIST ACTION and/or TRIGGER TYPE correlation to ELBOW position at IMPACT is interesting.

Nice work Matt. I have been toiling over single and standard wrist action all summer.

Say Annikan, what is your pitch elbow position, position?????

The right elbow certainly is a key area of the swing to focus on, no doubt. I'd suggest we move all or part of this thread to the basics section so those new to TGM can understand this important difference of elbow position, loading and unloading.

Elbow/Right Forearm Impact Location
 

Remember, whether hitting or swinging, the elbow / right forearm location at impact are identical. Per 6-B-3-0-1 and 7-2-3. Since 6-B-3-0-1 requires a Strong Single Action grip- the right forearm from the above view, points in the same direction as the back of the left wrist- that's really part of the flying wedges. During the downstroke- the right elbow may be to the side (Punch) or in front of the hip (Pitch), as Matt pointed out based on the nature of the acceleration method used, the inherent lag loading requirements, which in turn create the different wrist actions, which in turn based on the flying wedge alignments produce different elbow locations, which in turn automatically produce different hinge actions inherent in each of the respective procedures- Hitting or Swinging. But in both cases the elbow/right forearm arrive at the same point at impact- that location you have established at impact fix- with the right forearm precisely positioned not only on-plane but precisely positioned in its same cross line direction as the back of the left wrist and lag pressure point (7-2-3)- fully supporting impact- with a level right wrist since that is the strongest anatomical position of the wrist/forearm alignment.

Re: ELBOW
 

That'd be me!

Someone on bombsquad worked in a tour van for the weekend and helped with his clubs. All of the driver's were closed and make sense due to his angled hinge action

Re: Elbow/Right Forearm Impact Location
 

Superb post to illustrate the chain of events taking place! Let me reiterate:


Hitters:
Drive Loading (10-19-A) >>> Single Wrist Action (10-18-C) >>> Punch Basic Stroke (10-3-A)

In English:
Push >>> Left Wrist Cock only >>> Elbow at the side


Swingers:
Drag Loading (19-19-C) >>> Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A) >>> Pitch Basic Stroke (10-3-B)

In English:
Pull >>> Left Wrist is Cocked and Turned on Plane >>> Elbow at the front

Re: Elbow/Right Forearm Impact Location
 

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MikeO,

So what you are saying here is players may arrive at the 9-2-9 position in the Pitch or Punch position, but their Impacts ideally will be identical.

Impact
 

Yes

Re: ELBOW
 

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Furyk is actually nearly in the PUSH position at the 9-2-9 position.

I've noticed that several players appear to be in a Punch or similar position when viewed from down the line, but still have a big #2 Accumulator and good impact conditions when viewed from the face on view. Davis Love and Byron Nelson, for example. What are your views on this?

I still think Furyk is using a Reverse Shift, Angled Hinging, and has a kind of "gravity assisted rotary whip-sling", more a form of a Swing than a Hit, although he does have some characteristics of a Hitter. Sometimes the Hitter vs. Swinger is difficult to identify. Mr. Doyle, I think, calls them "classy hitters".

I think this is an interesting, and hopefully uncontentious topic!!

Quote:"Furyk is actually nearly in the PUSH position at the 9-2-9 position.

I've noticed that several players appear to be in a Punch or similar position when viewed from down the line, but still have a big #2 Accumulator and good impact conditions when viewed from the face on view. Davis Love and Byron Nelson, for example. What are your views on this?

I still think Furyk is using a Reverse Shift, Angled Hinging, and has a kind of "gravity assisted rotary whip-sling", more a form of a Swing than a Hit, although he does have some characteristics of a Hitter. Sometimes the Hitter vs. Swinger is difficult to identify. Mr. Doyle, I think, calls them "classy hitters".

I think this is an interesting, and hopefully uncontentious topic!!:UnQuote"

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Lagster,
In regards to Furyk being in a push position at release (the first line of your post):
I don't really analyze golf movements of pros but my knee jerk reaction from a limited memory of Furyk's swing: that with his hands at address so close to his body- the Push elbow position would be the only one that would allow him to to have his right elbow not collide with the right hip on the downswing- or put another way- would be the only elbow position that would not create "round-housing" i.e. an over the top move. He would be a fine example of the myriad of patterns available to the player - that the Golfing Machine allows for, and it would be my opinion that no particular component (including elbow location 10-3) would mandate/limit a player to be a hitter or swinger.

I wasn't clear on exactly what you were describing in the rest of your post, and therefore what question you were asking.

Right elbow at the top
 

Yoda told me that the right forearm should be supporting the plane at a 90 degree angle in the back stroke. Doesn't that dictate where my right elbow is at the top?

Elbow
 

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MikeO,

I think your analyis of Furyk is excellent!

What I am talking about in the other part of the post has to do with face on vs. down the line views. I have notice several players have the elbow in a Punch like position at Release--down the line view, but from face on still have the alignments one might expect to see in a player that gets into a deep Pitch position-- big #2 Accumulator lag, and a forward leaning shaft at impact. Byron Nelson and Davis Love are two players like that.