Motor Learning??????
 

!. How long do most of you find it takes with your students(or yourselves) to make a MECHANICAL change?

2. Do you find this time varies if the student is making more than one mechanical change, or stays about the same?

3. How long before the student is able to take the change(or changes) to the course, and do better than with his former technique?

4. Have you found that a specific number of repetitions per practice session is necessary to cause the change?

5. Have you found that going beyond a certain number of repetitions, or certain amount of time per session is counter-productive?


In general, as probably most of you have noticed also, if the initial change or changes cause the student to immediately produce better shots, he will take to the changes fairly quickly. However, how long it takes for the change, or changes to become part of his standard technique, is another thing.

Learning mechanics is not that difficult. It's about the intention and detaching from the ball (impact, ball flight and result) and the target.

Do it precisely demands repetition.

Take it to the course is about detaching from the playing situations.

Coconut
 

The biggest change takes place in the Cocunut.

I remember Ben Doyle said during the Woodmont School that Homer told him to change something in his swing (can't remember exactly what it was). Ben implemented that change immediately, and never went back to his old habit!

It is my belief that for a student to change his swing he/she must understand what they are doing cognitively, visually, and kinesthetically. The student will perform as they perceive in their mind which is why some can make a change quickly as in tongzilla's example.

But to truly own the change, they do so in all three modes.

ldeit

It's hard
 

Speaking as a student, I think it is very hard to change the mechanics of the swing. Over the years I have a difficult time shedding old habits, and they still creep back in. It can be done, however. Some things for me take a long time, then one day it just clicks, or, hatches from the incubator if you will!

Sometimes changes are impossible if there is some basic fundemental getting in the way. A good teacher hopefully spots these right away.

I have a friend who is struggling. He just had a lesson and I was amazed that his grip and setup were never addressed. He has his right hand very weak and really on top of the club. His right forearm is very high and off plane at address. His stance is extremely closed. None of these things were brought up in his lesson. And he wonders why he can't make a move!

Re: Motor Learning??????
 

Lagster,
Great questions!

This is a subject (sports psychology) which has really been at the forefront of sports the last 10 years.

In summary, I am not a teacher. However, Ldeit had a great reply. Add to his anxiety. Performance anxiety, in my opinion, is a major major issue in motor learning.

We've all seen (and done) someone take a unbelievable practice swing - only to have that swing melt when its 'for real'. Why?

Thats the question in my opinion. I have never felt the 21 day repetition worked. I do believe that non mechanical thoughts on the course allow the player to come out - though 'swing thoughts' would say otherwise.

Bottomline, I dont know. But if you would like alot of references (start with Nideffer), I can supply.

Patrick

Re: Motor Learning??????
 

__________________________________________________ ___________

People learn to do all kinds of things... drive a car, type, walk, dance, etc..

Any of these would probably be tricky to change, once the intitial pattern, or GROOVE, is formed.

Look, for example, at Billy Mayfair in putting, and Charles Barkley in the full swing. These are both athletic people.

Others, like Tiger, and probably someone like Mac O., seem to be able to make changes rather easily.

I'm not sure about the 20 day thing either, but it does seem to be about that for some things, and some people.

It is never easy to incorporate a swing change, but I have found it to be much easier if you or the student is convinced that is has to be done. How many times haven't you seen an instructor telling the truth to a "deaf" student.

Convincing the student can be done in a few ways:
- Providing some basic understanding of G.O.L.F.
- Video analysis
- Lies and marketing :roll:

My point is, everyone is different. 35, 29, 220 might not work for me, but might for you.

And it took Tiger almost 2 years to get his hands outside the clubhead.
;)

explain ;Tigers hands outside the clubhead
 

Do you mean clubhead outside the hands?

Yes...my bad.

He slowed down his lower body to achieve this mainly....:)

And it took awhile!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own FACTS! I have no research to back what I am about to say up, however I feel change cannot come without faith. Faith in the teacher, the change, and faith in the ability to accomplish it. If you have the faith, all you need is the repetition.

Yes Neil....good catch.

I think the main point is...there isnt a 'forumla' to do this or that. Too many factors involved...

However, there some ways in which studies have shown to help...ie, visualization, mental rehearsal, self talk, etc.

I agree VJ- there is a lot of faith turned over to TGM, Homer, Lynn and AI instructors like yourself. And faith is garnered by improvement and trust in the material.

I do not feel that this topic is given enough attention on this forum, or in teaching in general. Nor do students really understand it......until they look up 5 years later and have barely improved, and begin to wonder why!

Quite frankly, this site and ANY AND ALL "TEACHING" is for not if students are not taught.....How to learn and incorporate this great material. How to deal with the mental side of true change. Its got to be an integral part of teaching, otherwise, both the teacher and the student suffer.

This is huge and really should be dealt with by the "teachers" on this site, if they even know how to address it!

Habits
 

Good 300Drive!!!

Hummmmmmmmmmmm... How many repetitions per day, for how many days or weeks, does it take to develop a HABIT? If an old habit must be overcome... does it take longer?

I have heard different answers to this, but around 100 or so reps per day for two weeks seems to be what I have heard.

Of course the quality of the repetitions must be consistent, if a quality habit is to be gained.

What do you think?

Of course many other factors could be discussed here!

I think its a good start.....what about the "totally different" psychological effect of tyring to go through the change while playing on the course! Range practice, is not golf. Golf is only done on the course. So, what would be the best approach on developing a mechanical/feel change while also playing golf? Thats tough. How should we approach it?

Also, some teachers with high egos (most) like to say that if you are makeing a change, you should see better results immediately. Maybe for a small few, certainly, not for most. Typically, if you a changing one mechanical move/feel, you have to change another, since, the flaw you are changes is being "compensated" by some other, "non-desireable" move.

Its a really tough game!

Back to my reps, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, .......

Interesting Ad
 

Has anyone else seen the Adidas advertisement where golfers are swinging and the golf club is not visible. That really caught my eye...I wonder how effective that would be as a teaching tool to see sound TGM swings and the relationship of all the moving parts without being distracted by the golf club.

Hogan on swing changes
 

From: Golf World March 1978
Hogan: Well it just takes eights hours a day.
Seitz: Like any other Job.
Hogan: Yeah, thats right. If you find something that's
not working, you've got to go out and work about
three days harder on that one think.

Note: Three days at 8 hours a day, means 24 hours to
work a swing change to fix a problem.

I read a book by Dave Stockton about putting.

His father is a good coach and when his father change something , a grip for example. He mentioned that the father only checked back 21 days later. So 21 days for a grip change, if he find something wrong , he will change it there and then , if not he will leave it be. but the cycle is always about 21 days.

My point was/is this...

21 days, 32 hours, etc etc all that is inconclusive.

Getting better through practice is different for everyone, so it seems.

If 21 days at so many reps worked, and that's all it took...wouldnt the top flight players improve off the charts? It took Ernie (I believe) almost 2 years to stop laying the club off, no?

Ah, nevermind!