Left arm wedge
 

Long time lurker, irregular poster...

Firstly, thank you to Lynn, 6BMike and all the admin at the site for the wonderful videos of late, these are incredible instruction. Watching the excellent ruready2roll video got me thinking about the left arm wedge, and that thinking led to fog!

Lynn talks about see the line, uncocking on the line, and rolling on the line. For a swinger I imagine you could include dragging on the line (I seem to remember an old post about the 3 stage rocket - drag, uncock, roll). Also for a swinger, you'll have swiveled the left palm against the plane. So, assuming a sequenced release, for the dragging and uncocking part, won't the whole left arm wedge be directed at the plane line? But then isn't the left arm never on plane (it can’t be because the left shoulder isn’t on plane)? Or to put it another way, won’t there have to be (dare I say it!) a bend in the left wrist to allow onplane uncocking?

I’m even more confused after writing this!!!!

Help!

Chris

Thanks for the reply,

I get the angle down the line at address, but once the left arm swivels 90 degrees, if the left arm wedge was maintained perfectly, wouldn't the club cock up in line with the left arm? If my left wrist is flat, and I cock the club up it goes towards my left shoulder. If I rotate my arm and keep my left wrist flat shouldn't it still go towards my left shoulder? But it doesn't, it goes towards my (turned) right shoulder. Or at least it should! So how is the integrity of the left arm wedge maintained? Same problem coming down if you uncock before rolling.

To put it another way, how does the left wrist cock not cause the club to get above plane, unless the whole left arm is lying on the plane (which it is obviously not)?

Thanks,
Chris

Misconceptions
 

I believe there seems to be a misconception that the Left Hand should be Turned 'On Plane' for Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A). I haven't got the book with me, but I don't think Homer ever mentions Turning the Left Hand On Plane. All he says is that it should be Turned.

Another one I hear a lot is that the Left Hand should be rotated a quater turn / 90 degrees. I don't think Homer ever says that either.

How much should the Left Wrist Turn (for the Swinger)? Anyone got an answer :?:

Remember this, it will simplify everything for you.

As long as your Left Wrist is Flat, you have mainted the integrity of your Left Arm Flying Wedge! That's it!

ChrisNZ wrote,

"Also for a swinger, you'll have swiveled the left palm against the plane."

The LINE of the leading edge of the club can lie in a plane, without the left flying wedge lying in that plane.

You turn the left wrist just enough to get the leading edge of the club parallel to the plane line at the top.

Tong, thaks for simplifying this...as someone that can be way to obesessed with swing thoughts and swing positions I like trying to keep things simple. I have spent much time looking at my backswing position at the "top" and for me the simplest thought is to verify that I use "impact hands" at address and keep the flat left wrist (FLW) and bent right wrist "vertical" throughout the backstroke, through impact, and all the way through the follow through.

My only backstroke thought now that I got from someone else on this forum a month or two back is to be able to "spear the fishy" from the top...if I could do this then I know that I am in an ideal position for the downstroke.

Keith

The Turned Left Hand
 

Per 4-C-2:

"When Turned...the left palm faces directly toward that [selected] Plane."

Per 10-11-0-3:

The quarter turn rotation you mention refers not to the Left Hand, but to the Right Hand and its #3 Pressure Point (meaty part of the right forefinger). And that does not refer to an actual rotation of the Hand, but merely the rotation of the pressure point pressure (from the back to the top of the Clubshaft) during an End Backstroke.

.................................................. ..............

A detailed explanation... with picture... of Left Wrist Turn, and Right Forearm Fanning would probably be helpful. Showing Standard, Single, and Double Wrist Action would be even better!

It's All In The Book
 

The explanations and photos are all there in 10-18. Just remember that photos 10-18-C and 10-18-D should be reversed.

Also, study the "Useful Combinations" (photos 5-A/B/C/D).

As I look at 5-C-2 (the Right Wrist Conditions complementing the Left Wrist's Flat, Cocked and Turned Conditions) I am taken back 24 years. When I began my study of The Golfing Machine® in 1979, the book's complementing Right Wrist Conditions were identical to those of the Left, i.e., Flat, Turned and Cocked. By 1981, I had come to understand the Right Forearm Flying Wedge, and clearly, a Cocked Right Wrist destroys that structure. Plus, the photo did not seem to show the Wrist as Cocked. So, I telephoned Homer -- by this time he had gotten used to these calls! -- and asked about it. After a brief pause, he answered, "You're right. It should be Level, not Cocked."

And he changed it in the 5th edition.

Keith:

Don't forget about the Level Right Wrist which is equally important as the Flat Left Wrist -- together, they give you your precision Flying Wedges Assembly -- the real Gateway to Golfing perfection!

Sorry, I still don't get this.

Which of these are wrong?

* If the left wrist is flat the club must cock directly towards the left shoulder and uncock away from the left shoulder.

* In an onplane swing, on the turned shoulder plane, after turning, the club cocks back towards the right shoulder, or where the right shoulder will be after it has turned back to plane. Or, in other words, the wrist cock occurs on plane.

* The only way the club could cock towards both the left and right shoulders would be if the left and right shoulder were both on plane (possible with a rotated shoulder plane?)

It seems to me (and I'm happy to be corrected on this!) that you need a small bend in your left wrist to cock towards the right shoulder unless the left shoulder is also on plane.

Help!

Chris

Wrist conditions and Planes
 

The Left Wrist is only Turned for the Swinger using Standard Wrist Action (10-18-A). Turned means that the Left Palm faces towards the Inclined Plane. Any Cocking occurs independently of this Turned Left Wrist Condition, i.e. amount of Cocking does not affect how much the Left Wrist is Turned.

The Flat Left Wrist Condition should be established at Impact Fix (10-8-A). The Swinger using Standard Address (10-9-A) has a Bent Left Wrist to start with which gets Flattened via Extensor Action during Start Up. This flatness of the Left Wrist is identical to that established at Impact Fix, and its condition is maintained until Follow Through.

PS: There is no Rotated Shoulder Plane Angle in The Golfing Machine. However there is a Rotated Shoulder Turn (10-13-C). The Rotated Shoulder Turn does not place the Left Shoulder On Plane at the Top. For photographic evidence, please look at 10-13-C #2. In fact, the geometry of Shoulder Control deals only with the Right Shoulder. So stop thinking about the Left Shoulder -- it's the Right Shoulder that matters. Study third paragraph of 2-H.

Hope this helps.

But if the left palm is on the plane, and the left shoulder is not, then neither is the left arm, hence there must be an angle between the palm and the arm - how can the left wrist be flat?

Or is it to do with the subtle anatomy of the hand (I must look like an idiot sitting here at my desk cocking my wrist up and down - my wife is always telling me to stop forming golf grips and the like when we're in public together!)

Thanks,
Chris

Imagine you are rolling your left arm up and down a plane board the would rest under your upper arms at address. You are 'hugging' the plane, the wheel, - clapping your hands on it. Rotation takes place around this point if you turn and roll the forearms, back and through. Hitters tend to resist the natural 'roll' caused by the clubs design, and keep the back of the left hand more perpendicular to the plane in 'feel'. A frisbee toss motion for example. See the drills section for a few more examples.

Left Wrist On-Plane?
 

Chris,
I see your issue, I'm sure you've been praying for someone to understand your analysis.

The "left wrist on-plane" is a very general term- as I've seen it used. As you correctly determined- say at the top of a typical golf swing- a flat left wrist is certainly not on plane, if it is flat- then it's on the same plane as the left arm- which is not normally on plane- except with a zero #3 accumulator.

Could the left wrist be precisely on plane somewhere during the backstroke or downstroke- for example where the left arm is parallel to the ground on the backstroke or downstroke? - it could but I really wouldn't think it would be worth noting.

Oh, I get it. Your problem lies in not understanding the Plane!

Please go to 10-6-B #2 now. You can see the Left Palm is Turned facing toward the Plane as per Standard Wrist Action. Is the Left Shoulder or Left Arm On Plane? Clearly not! However, the Left Arm Flying Wedge Assembly is still maintained -- the Left Wrist is Flat.

(Now, you should not use a photo for a purpose beyond its captioned intent. And I rarely do that. But this is the best photo I could find to illustrate my point.)

This is why I think Left Hand Turned facing toward the plane is different to Left Hand Turned On Plane. Like Chris mentioned, if the Left Palm was turned directly On Plane with a Flat Left Wrist, the the Left Arm would also be On Plane, but looking at photos of Diane and touring pros, it never is!

Yoda said:
"When Turned...the left palm faces directly toward that [selected] Plane."

I believe this can be misleading if you're not careful given my comments above. Hence my question at the beginning of this thread about how much exactly should the Left Wrist be Turned. Now coming to think about it, I don't think it's an important question -- as long as the Left Wrist is Turned so that it's generally facing toward the Plane -- it's fine!

I wonder what Yoda thinks :roll: .

[I have edited my post above after this insight]

Left Wrist On-Plane?
 

Please note that I edited my post after Tongzilla quoted it- so refer to my original post. Although, the essential nature of the post is intact- I just made it a little more specific and clear.

Exactly, thanks for understanding Mike O! (Although I wasn't praying, that was just me cocking my left wrist up and down to try and figure this out!)

I guess I'm still a little unsure how the club can be on plane while one still has a flat left wrist though, unless the club leaves the left hand at an angle. That is, if you hold the club up in front of you in your left hand the club will need to angle towards your right. Hey, maybe that's why we turn the wrist?! The geometry of this is killing me!

Related question (I think) - is a perfectly sequenced release (on plane) impossible, because at the top the left wrist is not on plane. Do you need some simultaneous roll to ensure the wrist uncocking is on plane?

Actually this refers to the second part of your quote. Surely on the downstroke it is essential that the left wrist be on plane if you are purely uncocking in a sequenced release (so it would be worth noting). But then as I said, this may be impossible (pure uncocking).

Chris

The On Plane Left Palm
 

For the Left Wrist to Cock and for the Club to remain On Plane, the palm of the Left Hand must On Plane.

That reiterates my original problem! My understanding of the left arm wedge was this: Take a dowel, lie your whole left arm on a table with the palm facing down, hold the dowel in your left hand. By cocking and uncocking the left wrist you can move the dowel without it leaving the table - it's on plane, but if you bend the wrist then the dowel lifts off the table - off plane - broken flying wedge. But because the left arm is not on plane in the golf swing, but the left palm is, mustn't the wedge be broken??? In an actual swing isn't it akin to having the palm on the table, but the left arm at an angle to the table, and then isn't the left wrist bent slightly?

Makes me think of the Hogan five lessons pics illustrating pronation and supination, with a cup in the wrist on the way down, presumably prior to rolling at which point the left wrist flattens.

Chris

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Yes Mr. Yoda... those pictures are in the book. I was talking about some NEW pictures if possible, that also show the CLUBFACE. 10-18-A and 10-18-D(which should be C), for example, look about the same to me.

Also, an explanation of RIGHT FOREARM FANNING, as differentiated from LEFT WRIST TURNING would be good. I remember an excellent post you did some time ago explaning their separate identities. I believe you described how Miller Barber actually FANNED on the DOWNSWING.

The On Plane-Off Plane Left Arm
 

The Left Arm lies always in the Vertical Plane of the Left Wristcock -- the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. That Left Wristcock Motion may or may not be on the Angled Plane of the Stroke.

Typically, assuming a #3 Accumulator Angle and Start Up and Release Swivels, the Left Arm is On Plane from the end of Start Up until the beginning of the Release. During Start Up and Release, the Clubhead appears to move in an Arc 'around and outside the Hands' when related to the Left Arm. Where there is no #3 Angle (6-B-3-B), there is theoretically a Left Shoulder Plane, and the Left Arm is on that Plane throughout.

Interestingly, again assuming the existence of a #3 Accumulator Angle, the Right Forearm is On Plane when the Left Arm is not, that is, during Start Up and Release.

And vice versa.

Interesting is the word! Thanks Lynn. I always thought that according to the book the left arm was never on plane, and that extensor action was therefore always below plane. It really helps to have you identify the points where the left arm is on plane - it was kind of what I thought - during the roll portion of the release the left arm actually kind of rolls under and out of the way (as opposed to the right arm going out around the left arm) - right?

Even so, I still think when you say the left arm is on plane it can still only by more-or-less on plane - not exactly on plane. But I won't push it!

Chris

The On And Off Plane Left Arm Flying Wedge
 

Again, the Left Arm is On Plane when the Left Arm Flying Wedge is On Plane. Not before (during Address and Start Up) and not after (during Release and Impact).

In other words, the Left Arm or Left Arm Flying Wedge should theoretically be Turned On Plane between the Startup Swivel and Release Swivel.



I looked at a few down-the-line photos of various pros and noticed that most time, their Left Palm (and hence the Left Arm) is rarely turned directly On Plane between the Startup and Release Swivels. But it's still Turned, just not exactly On Plane, as it theoretically should do.

Eureka!?
 

I've slept on this now, read the book, meditated on it etc, and here is what I think the solution to this problem is:

The plane of the the left wrist cock is not in the plane of the left palm -

or:

a cocked left wrist is not at a 90 degree angle to a bent left wrist.

Firstly, look at pictures in the book - say 10-6-B #2. The left arm is not in any way on plane, but the left palm is. Per 7-2, the back of he flat left wrist faces down the angle of approach at impact fix - therefore essentially the back of the left hand faces out towards right field (or in my country out towards long off or cover). Now, for simplicities sake, imagine the left arm at low point, where it is perpendicular to the plane line. I think wrist cock at this point would also be perpendicular to the plane line - but because the left wrist/palm faces somewhat to right field this won't be in the plane of the left palm.

This kind of wrist cock gives the look you see in Lynn's videos (I think), and in the pics in the book (e.g. 10-6-B #2), where the left wrist seems to cup a bit at the top (or in fact, cup a bit as the wrist cocks). Basically, it creates an angle which allows the left palm to be on plane while the left arm is not. Note that when you uncock in this sort of plane however, that the left wrist is flat.

This works for me. What do you guys think?

Chris

On-Plane Left Arm Flying Wedge
 

Lynn,
Not following you on this, the left arm flying wedge is normally never on the swing plane.

Check out Jody's swing sequence- as with any other professional swing sequence.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ead.php?t=1331

The on-plane motion of the clubshaft directed by the lag really controls what motions will be made- the uncocking flat left wrist and any roll are really subservient to the on-plane motion. I could go into further detail regarding the flat uncocking left wrist, but I think it's pretty obvious if we start looking at swing sequences that the left arm flying wedge is never on the swing plane. However, if you've thought before that the left wrist would need to stay flat and on-plane for any uncocking to create an on-plane motion of the clubshaft then your're brain's going to scramble for a while- dealing with a different concept.

The easiest solution for a contrary opinion would be to put up or point out swing sequences where the left arm flying wedge is on-plane as you described. After all, if the left arm flying wedge is on-plane then the left shoulder would be on-plane. A

Mike O.

Or just look at photos in Homer's book.

Geometry
 

I had the sime thoughts Mike O,

Having been thinking a bit further, I think this can be refined a little bit. Assume the following premises:

1) the leftt wrist is flat from impact fix to impact
2) the club (not only the clubhead) is on plane from impact fix to impact
2) the left arm is steeper than the plan at address and impact. 10-6-B#1
3) the left arm is flatter than the plane at top of back swing. 10-6-B#2

As we move away from address, the leftt arm goes from a steeper to a flatter position compared to the swing plane. So somewhere in the middle, the left arm must at least be parallell to the plane (as seen down the line). Since the club is on plane throughout, left arm will not only be parallell, but also on plane. But this will only be at a point in the swing.

Where's the point? It's the point where the left arm is parallell to the ground. From a "pure geometry" approach, it cannot be otherwice. Or?

Edit: The text was a bit lefty and righty oriented - now it's written for a righty swing.

Right arm or Left?
 

Bernt,
Are you a lefty! We don't allow lefties here!:smile: =; Just kidding- so following the context of the thread- anywhere in your post where you said right arm - I'm putting in left arm.
Thanks,
Mike O.

Further, that was my initial thought - that the left arm could be on plane at one point (parallel to the ground)- but in a normal golf swing it never is on plane (with the exception of a zero #3 accumulator).

Because the left arm starts at address steeper than the plane and then at the top is flatter than the plane does not mean that somewhere in between it is on plane. You'll see or verify that with any swing sequence where the left arm is parallel to the ground and the left shoulder is no where near on-plane.

The Left Arm Wedge And The Inclined Plane
 

Although the Left Arm Flying Wedge often is not On Plane, I do not agree that it is "normally never on the swing plane." For example, Full Extension of the Primary Lever (Left Arm and Club, aka Zero #3 Accumulator) should occur in almost every Stroke immediately after Impact. Clearly, when this condition exists, there is a theoretical Left Arm Inclined Plane (Photo 9-2-11 #2). Another On Plane Left Arm Flying Wedge could occur on the Downstroke when both the Left and Right Shoulders are On Plane (Photo 9-2-8 ).

Nevertheless, the many variables associated with this subject demands great precision in writing, and my earlier post needs some correction. I will write again on this issue when I can devote the necessary time. Meanwhile, check out the Down-the-Line view of the following Moe Norman sequence.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ghlight=norman

Then what exacly is on plane in a sound swing?
 

You're right. I'm a lefty. Usually I manage to write stuff like this in a right hand perspective. But this time I messed things up. I've done some editing.

I will not argue against your last paragraph - about the left shoulder being above the plane when the left arm is parallell. If that is correct, it does have consequences to one of the premises I wrote:

2) the club (not only the clubhead) is on plane from impact fix to impact

Then this premise cannot be correct. If the shoulder is above the swing plane so is the grip with the left hand. Can the right hand with pp1 and pp3 still be on plane? I doubt it.

ThenIf the sweetspot is on plane and the hands above plane, the shaft angle must be flatter than the swing plane in this position.

There are more "ThenIf's" down this line.

Depending on how this thread is continuing, I might actually learn something very fundamental.

Yoda,

This is complicated stuff, no doubt about it. I will be looking forward to you clarification.

All I can say is WOW! What a thread!!!

I agree with Mike...the left arm flying wedge seems to be rarely on plane. I wait for Yoda's further explanation.

But more then that, gentlemen...this is a great thread. Why?

CAUSE....it get's ya THINKIN!

And remember, nothing wrong with not agreeing!!! The questions is how we learn! (me , you, everyone)!