Right Elbow Movement
 

In the picture comparison of Yoda and Hogan in the gallery, note how the right elbow has tucked back into the right side? This no doubt is a result of the proper sequencing, but if one were to work on this move what would you suggest??

I've noticed that in video, my right elbow does not return to my side quite so neatly. My feeling is that I need to work on delivery path and aiming point, but aside from that are there any suggestions?

Hmmm...well, dont think Hogan will respond, so let's ask Lynn....

Lynn?????

My feeling is, I wouldnt be too concerned - as long as the right elbow gets on plane.

Oh yeah...

Did I yell for Lynn?:D

Right elbow
 

This has been an area of confusion to me ever since my lesson with Lynn.Since Lynn& Ted revealed the magic of extensor action I find it difficult to get my elbow forward of my hip.Extensor action seems to contradict the "soft"feeling I need to achieve the position Lynn gets.:???:

Load it with "LAG" and sustain that "LAG" toward the inside corner (rather than the back) of the ball.

pitch
 

Be careful about exaggerating the Pitch as shown in 10-3-B. Too many people try to 'tuck the elbow' and get into accumulator lag, where the right arm never straightens. Trust me; I've been there.](*,)

I'll give you a little drill to support the proper positioning for the use of a Snap Release. Place your left hand in front of your body and place it palm to plane (as in a start-up swivel). A start-up swivel is preparation for the use of a release swivel. "As it goes up, so it tends to come down."

With your left hand palm to plane, place your right forearm flying wedge under and against the left. When you're palm to palm, notice the position of the right elbow. You are in Pitch. Instead of trying to change the elbow, try to keep your left hand palm to plane longer. In fact, take the 'karate chop' past your line of sight to the ball. It's a maximum trigger delay.

P.S. Don't tell anybody I talked about swinging. I'll be ostracized from the hitters emergency room. 8-[

Cute Post!
 

Solid post! Nice to see you getting in touch with your feminine side. Wanna go shopping sometime?:D

Ted the closet Swinger
 

Hmmm.....

For some reason I suspect you could execute a Swing just fine! :cool:

This is such a great drill Ted,
when I am playing my best, my main swing thought is
"Karate Chop to the inside quad ball."

Slinger,

In issuing the Chop Down . . . are you basically just taking a Turned Left Hand downplane as if there were no release?

Thanks!

B

I Auto-Snap, therefore I am...
 

Yes Sir,

I use an Auto Snap Release.

Per 6-N-0-2: " The Automatic drives the Hands at the Aiming
Point (6-E-2)"

If one is using a standard ball position, the Aiming Point changes.
If one uses varying ball position, then the Aiming Point is the ball itself.

However, before an Automatic procedure can be developed, a non-automatic procedure must first be mastered.

Per 12-2-0: "Avoid "customizing" it with other Variations until it approaches the "expert" stage."

We see here in 12-2-0 that we have a snap load and a non-auto sweep release. Does this not go against 7-20 where we see "...Sweep with Sweep, Snap with Snap." ?

Not if we look at it from the light of 6-R-0

Per 6-R-0: "When the selected Non-Automatic Stroke Pattern is mastered it can be pushed on to maximum Delay and become an Automatic Release..."

Lynn explained it to me that 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 are not actually models to aim for, but rather a good starting point to learn the uncompensated stroke.

Mr Kelly really wanted players to master this basic pattern and then customize it if the expert player wanted to. Please note that not all customizations will lead to compensations in the stroke.

I used to have as much delay anybody would need (My mates used to compare my downstroke to Sergio), then I was taught to "follow" 12-2-0. I lost that "lovin feelin'" and the game went down south for a little while.

Lynn has got me back on track, and when I get that "look" back again, I shall be glad to post it up if anyone is keen to see it.

Another thing players need to be aware of in using an Auto Snap is 6-H-B: "Avoid "Starting to Hit" when using a Snap Release (6-N-0)"

Hand and the Pivot

I understand "Educated Hands", but if a player with an uneducated pivot tried to do what I do, it is very easy to do something else other than aiming the hands at the inside quad ball.

The Pivot and the Hands are not mutually exclusive elements in the golf swing. They are CO-DEPENDENT on one another if they are to work together to produce an effective golf swing.

There are 3 Zones in the book for good reason.

Per 9-2: "Zone #3 can never be any better than its Zones #1 and #2 support."

Think of the golf swing as Salt.
Salt is made up of Sodium and Chloride.

On their own, sodium and chloride are dangerous, together they are beneficial. The pivot is the sodium and the hands are the chloride.

Think of the golf swing again as a car. The pivot is the engine of the car, and the hands utilise the steering mechanism to guide the car which is powered by the engine.

The question I would like to pose here and - I have asked this before; would it not be infinitely easier to drive a car that has an engine in good condition?

Per 9-1: "Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot."

Per 12-3-0: "Note that no Zone #1 elements are listed - Educated Hands control the Pivot (9-1)"

As I read the book, my understanding of it is:

1) Train the Pivot
2) Train the Hands to control the Pivot
3) Use the "Educated Hands".

Learning by Association

Per 3-B and 9-2: "look, look, LOOK"

If golf felt like it looked and looked like it felt, it would be an easy game.

What feels wrong is right, what feels right is wrong. Thus Mr Kelly's constant admonition to keep looking. This is learning by associating a look to the feel.

When you are practicing a certain move, always check in the mirror to see that you are actually doing it. This goes for Auto Snap Releases (Avoiding Starting to Hit) as well as other things.

Like a tailor measuring you for a jacket - EdZ ;)

Yes.

Per 6-G: Educated Hands can compensate for Off Line Hip and Shoulder Motion but only up to a point.

As an aside...

When you're about to crash would you rather have your feet on the gas pedal or your hands on the steering wheel?

Whoa Nellie!
 

My vote is for both feet on the the brake.

:)

I knew someone would say that [-( .

I will have both feet to the brakes and make sure the hands are firmly on the steering to counter any skidding that arises from slamming the brakes...:)

I hate Steering,:mad: so I am with Yoda. Both feet on the brakes and my hand on the emergency brake!!!.:D

Funny, I just noticed what I said. If you look at my Avatar, I am really with Yoda!!!:rolleyes:

crashing
 

I wish all ya'll (plural for ya'll) would stop talking about crashing. It's giving me the heebie-jeebies. I've read this awesome book called The Golfing Machine, written by Homer Kelley. Maybe, you've heard of it. Stick to the machine concept found in 1-L and you can avoid crashing. :shock:

Blame me for igniting this discussion Ted. Lets change gears and get back on topic.

This is how you get out of "perverted pitch"....outstanding Ted....Notice how the elbow has a relationship to the behavior of the #3 Accumulator...Therefore one can conclude that one's wrist action, hinge action, arm motiona and elbow location...although seperate to themselves have to be coordinated....Children need to learn to play together.....

The Hitter's Right Elbow During Release
 

For the Hitter's application, start from the Swinger's position Luke has described above. Now, Roll the Left Wrist slightly (to the left toward the vertical). Allow the Right Forearm Flying Wedge to likewise Roll. Now observe the position of the Right Elbow. You are in Punch.

In other words, Single Wrist Action will naturally bring your Elbow to a Punch position, while Standard Wrist Action will naturally bring it to a Pitch position.

Another reason for the Swinger to Start Up Swivel.

Are these same "procedures" applicable to one that has a different grip type than the preferred 10-2-B?

perverted pitch
 

I love that phrase...I'm going to keep that and use it. :)

Can't we all just get along? ;)

The red-headed stepchild who doesn't like to play along..the right arm swing per 10-3-K with loosened wrists...ooops.....Sorry Richard....you know I love you man.....Here we go again....[-o<

Lag Loading and the Major Basic Strokes
 

The principle is the same, but the application will vary with the Grip Type. The key is in the Loading.

If you bring the Club into Release with the Loading against the top of the Clubshaft and the first knuckle of the Right Hand (usually Swinging), you will tend toward Pitch Basic Stroke. If you bring the Loading in against the back of the Shaft and the meaty part of the right forefinger (usually Hitting), you will tend toward Punch Basic Stroke.

That tendency noted, the Elbow Positions (and, therefore by definition, the Major Basic Strokes) are interchangeable for both Swingers and Hitters.

Wrist Action and Elbow Position
 

Yes, and this is one of the very few times I would recommend usng a given photo to reference a component other than that being illustrated (2-R).

Compare the Elbow postion in Photo 10-18-A (Standard Wrist Action) and the Elbow Position in 10-18-C (Single Wrist Action). [IMPORTANT: You must use Photo 10-18-D for 10-18-C because the photos are transposed.] The Turned Left Wrist of Standard Action has enabled the Elbow to 'lead' deeper into Release Interval (Pitch Basic Stroke) than the Vertical Left Wrist of Single Wrist Action (Punch Basic Stroke).

The untrained eye may not at first be able to detect an appreciable difference betweeen the two. But it is there. To help see it, check out the space between the Forearms in the Single Wrist Action photo as the Right Forearm supports the back-of-the-Shaft Loading (instead of Standard Wrist Action's top-of-the-Shaft Loading.

Since the Pitch Stroke is conducive to greater Trigger Delay, we observe Swingers having more of a "true" Snap Release than Hitters.

And everything else being equal, that means greater Clubhead Speed.

Another point for the Swinger on my Swinger/Hitter Scorecard.

PS: I've nothing against Hitting.

hitting
 

You're too nice to be a hitter. ;) :twisted:

I'm with Tong...Hitting for me personally ruined my game.... from driving it 285 - 305 yards with Swinging and relatively acccurate...(at least tree line to tree line) and a +1.6 handicap ....to Hitting it straight down the middle 245 - 265 yards and playing the mini-tours as a legit 4 handicap...Boy that's really nice when you're out there trying to make a living...At least now I understand "You can't drive gently and carry a big stick....

The deal is the right elbow location/ right forearm position to the loading procedure and it's wrist action....

Any of you notice a big difference in distance with Swinging with single wrist action vs. standard wrist action ...I Do!!!!

I wish only that I knew then what I know now...about the Hitters cheat sheet...The Right Forearm's own Angle of Approach


BTW ...my handicap was as low as +2.2 this summer using both machines...perhaps it's time to go back out to try it again...NOT...I'd make more on the lesson tee!!! Plus my wife and kids would leave me!!!

Applying the Hitting Procedure
 

Annikan,

I think I understand the thrust of your post -- no pun intended :) -- but just for clarification...

When you said "Hitting...ruined my game," did you mean that the Hitting procedure itself was the problem or that it was your less than full understanding (at that time) of how to apply it?

The less than full understanding...but even with a better understanding ...The fact is...I am shorter as a hitter than a swinger...it's easier for me to generate a transfer of momentum than to thrust with with my right arm plus the backstop of pivot thrust....perhaps it has more to do with my release motions...

I feel that style is important for certain shots with my own game...sometimes I like to use hitting for aggressive punch shots or chip shots....but I like to swing everything else....irons, woods, pitches,lobs, bunker play, and putting...

I used to drive with my putting style and I always had good line.....poor pace...Now I drag or swing my putter.....great pace.....decent line...


Personal Preference ..that's all..You know.."feel the force and use the force!"....
Perhaps if I had Yoda on the bag ..back in the hitting days..the outcome would be different.....


I believe hitting to be a very superior procedure for some...but it's my Learned Pattern...NOT my "Instinctive Pattern"...

My 21 month old daughter ....instictively uses a right forearm flying wedge with the #3PP located beautifully on the aft side witht the right forfinger triggered like a '?" on the club....she always demonstrates...radial acceleration with her plastic club...her 7 month old sister is still a mystery waitng in the wings...Mom has always used drag loading...BTW..she's not only the best looking...she's got the best looking swing in the family....


So Mom = Drag Loading
Dad = Drag Loading
1st daughter = Drive Loading
2nd Daughter = ?

Do you believe in the probablity of DNA?:rolleyes:

I do....LOL

But the fact still remains the handicap lowered as soon as I went back to my lifelong personal style of swinging......:D

Yes, there is a difference in distance between the two for me, however my accuracy and distance control is slightly better with single wrist action on the short irons and wedges and it is easier for me to 'call the shot' and control trajectory with single. My personal trend is to fall into angled hinge on shorter shots anyway (sometimes even when I don't want to, which is the main thing I have to come back to in my pattern if I am trying to swing, the finish swivel).

swinging ruined my game
 

Swinging ruined my game!!!! So, now were even!!! ;) :D

In reality, not knowing what the heck I was doing when I was Swinging was the problem. I would be a much better Swinger, now.
Hitting is the road for me, though. My distances are much better when Hitting, and I'm much more accurate. I'm about 6 mph slower with Swinging. But, if I practiced it, I think I could get them in the same range.