Set up = Ball Position
 

It's been unseasonably warm lately (46 deg F). I climbed the gate at the driving range both yesterday and today. One of the owners, whom I know, has been hitting a few balls and he left them there. I picked them up and collected a few more around the edges of the range while he was chasing quard drivers off the course.

I spent two hours each day reviewing both the basic and acquired motions. What a great time I had.

I came home tired but refreshed, a nice day.

I began planning what I will practice on during my next visit. I want to review the beginning basics. I would like to look at setting up and the address routine of 3-F-5. Also, and I do not want to ignite a fire storm, I cannot find anything in the book on ball position. I would like to relate it to my swing low point.

Any tips or suggestions on these subjects will be welcome.

Ball position can be found in 2-J-1 and 7-2. Have fun sifting through it!

Straight from the shoulder
 

These thoughts from Johnny Miller on ball position relate to swing low point and appear logical.

"The correct ball position at address is another important fundamental. My key here is to use the left shoulder, not the feet, as a reference point for where to play the ball. Unless you’re trying to hit an intentionally high or low shot, the ball should always be played off the middle of your left deltoid, right about where the muscle attaches to the bone. This allows you to use the best part of your swing arc, with your left arm returning to impact fully extended from the shoulder, and the right arm trailing and supplying the power.
Why not use the left heel as a guide for ball position? The feet are relative. If you have a very wide stance, playing the ball off the left heel will put the ball too far ahead of your shoulders. If you have a very narrow stance, playing the ball off the left heel will put the ball too far back; playing the ball off your left shoulder gives you a constant reference to work from."

This is amazing stuff! Makes me wonder if Jonny Miller knows TGM. He's the first non-TGM person I know who has made this point about ball position.

So the story goes...
 

I've heard that he worked with Ben Doyle, and at one time offered to promote TGM for an endorsement fee. Don't know if this is true, though.

Cool article strav.

Where u gettin this stuff?

Is this from Miller's book? He wrote one in the 70's. Never seen it.

However, his videos are VERY good. If you don't have 'em, get 'em. If you don't like the instruction you'll at least dig seeing JM bust it in sooopa-dooopa slow mo'.

That one is from a 1980 Golf magazine Birdie. His point that maintaining the ball off the left foot while altering the width of your stance can change your ball position in relation to your swing center is easily demonstrated eh?

Mr. Miller
 

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Johnny Miller knows some TGM. He learned from Ben Doyle.

The picture posted would work for a driver. With irons the ball should be further back in relation to the left shoulder(low point). This can be done by narrowing the stance, or moving the ball back, or a little of both.

Find your best way of getting correct ball position.

Ball position is a little more(much more) important for TRUE SWINGERS. With them, there is a certain spot where the club will hit the ball straight(no manipulation).

I have an idea...

But what components would you associate with pure Swinging? (generally)

Pure
 

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Pure(True) Swinging... An INACTIVE RIGHT ARM; and excellent and consistent RHYTHM are present with this player.

When Miller was advocating ball position relative to left shoulder, Nicklaus's " Golf My Way" suggest ball position off left heel.
Ball Relative to shoulder makes much more sense to me seeing how the TSP and elbow plane is much more connected to zone 2 mechanics.
I think trying to strike the ball is easier once it's line up with upper body and arms.

I saw JB Holmes on playing lesson hit a 300 yard drive on his knees, that pretty well blew way my consideration of Nicklaus's suggestion.

If you use the #2 Pressure Point for Lag Pressure to sense and guide the Left Arm Wedge, then ok.

But....

An inactive right triceps except for Extensor Action and the Power Package Thrusts the Right Forearm. The #3 Pressure Point utilizes the Right Forearm Flying Wedge to Sense and control acceleration. Better than using the #2 Pressure Point.

Convinces me that the Pivot is not at the center of Power Generation.

So, does that leave you convinced that the power comes from #4 being blasted
off of the chest?
I always look forward to your comments and answers.

The power has to come from somewhere. Either left arm, right arm or the pivot. Centripetal force and throwout can only redistribute and conserve the power that has been produced by the above mentioned.

If JB Holms was sitting on his butt, or even better, temporarily paralysed in his core, we would see how much clubhead speed he could generate without using the pivot much.

But still, since you basically have to choose between swinging your arms around the pivot or swinging the arms with the pivot, a full stroke can still be 95% pivot powered even if you get 65% of the distance without using it.

The left arm is basically useless for power generation, and certainly not by TGM standards anyway. That leaves the right arm + pivot for hitters, and pivot only for swingers. The blasting off the chest is powered by the pivot.

Right Arm, Left Wrist, Right Hand and Left Arm. Those are Accumulators 1,2,3 and 4. Out of line conditions of the Power Package assembly. Every ball and stick Sport uses them. Moving from out-of-line to in-line releases the stored power. Consider a simple baseball throw. Doesn't the Catcher bend his arm and then straighten it to throw the ball back to the Pitcher? Bend and Straighten (out-of-line to in-line).

In other words, Hitters use Right Triceps to move from the Bent conditions to Straight while the Swingers use CF.

Go to the Practice Range. Hit 50 balls with your 3 wood to the 100 yard green. At he end of 50 balls, what did you change most of all? The Power Package or the Pivot. Did you end up slowing a full swing or did you start using pitch shots with a standard Pivot? Which way is more successful for you?

I can't stress enough that the Left Arm does not Blast off the Chest when using the Elbow Plane. When using the Elbow Plane, the Left Arm is stuck to the Torso and is merely transportation for the Left Wrist. While the Left Arm moves strongly downward from the Top of the Stroke with the Elbow Plane, it cannot and does not produce the Awesome Power of Accumulator #4 to induce the Throwout of the Secondary Lever. Blast-off only occurs with Hands Controlled Pivot on the Turned Shoulder Plane.

If you're an Elbow Plane Swinger, you'll probably vary Pivot Speed. If you're a TSP Swinger, you'll vary the amount of out-of-line condition of the Power Package and Pressure Point Pressure and keep the Pivot under the control of the #3 Pressure Point.

Elbow Plane Swingers MUST use their Pivot to supply as much Power as Possible because they make a complete mess of the #4 Accumulator. :)

When do you want to blast the left arm off the chest? If you want to do it early go with TSP. If you want to do it later do a plane shift.

Daryl touches up on the difference between elbow plane and TSP, but misses the mark. The reason for using an elbow plane is more pivot control and more thrust through impact, better balance and more leverage into the follow thru. And of course more controlled usage of accumulator #4 ;-)

please explain..
 

Why is #4 accumulator excluded by some planes? Why can't #4 be used and carried beyond impact for all planes? Where does homer say this?

Thanks
The Bear (back from incubation vacation)

TURNED SHOULDER PLANE:

The #4 Accumulator is Loaded as the Right Elbow Bends and the Left Arm is carried across the Chest. The load location is where the left arm pushes against the chest. On a Turned Shoulder Plane, the #3 PP, #2 PP and Right Shoulder are ON PLANE. As the Downstroke begins, the #3 PP, #2 PP and Right Shoulder remain ON PLANE. The Pressure (Force) from the #4 Pressure Point is ON PLANE. As the Shoulder Turn subsides, this Pressure Blasts the Left Arm away from the Chest and the #2 & 3 Pressure Points are Blasted toward the Aiming Point and CF begins to Pull on the Clubhead Sweet-spot (Throwout).

So, the Unloading Force of the #4 PP is ON PLANE with the Right Shoulder and #2 & 3 Pressure Points.

The #4 Accumulator Load, is fully spent when the Right Arm is fully Straight (both arms straight). How far past Impact the Follow Through ends is a matter of Shoulder orientation.

When on the ELBOW Plane, things are very different. Rather than the #2 & 3 Pressure Points and Right Shoulder moving On Plane, they drop vertically toward a point somewhere between the feet and the plane line. This is not On Plane. This vertical drop lowers the Hands to the Elbow Plane. The Left Arm does not move Away from the Chest.

For Elbow Plane Swingers, the #4 Pressure Point becomes disengaged during the initial Vertical Drop from the end of the Backstroke undoing its potential PRIOR TO RELEASE. While for TSP Swingers, the Left Arm Blasting Off of the Chest is the Beginning of Release and adds an almost unmeasurable amount of Power.

Hitting a 7 iron 190 yards is a pretty simple undertaking and a great test to evaluate the power and "How Well you use the #4 Pressure Point". The 7 iron is short enough to accelerate very fast and has enough loft to trim to a respectable 6 iron and COAM isn't a problem. The Driver , on the other hand, is very long and the COAM effect requires an enormous amount of muscle or Power Package support to overcome.

#4
 

Isn't the left arm always pointing below plane? How can I get the right forearm on plane at impact without it being an elbow plane at that time? What plane are we on at follow through? Is the "plane" we are on only defined where we start down from? Is it the one we shift to? Is it definable after release? If I shift planes am I just moving to a new "top" position? Like "Happy Gilmore"? When #4 has the left arm on the chest and I use axis tilt won't I launch my inert left arm into center field? Are there some alignments and transitions that go beyond definition? Is there always some wobble and throw away because we are dealing with wrists and elbows and shoulders that have limitations? And we have strict "rules" for their alignment at all times? Does 1-L have both a primary and secondary lever assembly? If the primary lever assembly is maintained on plane can the secondary lever asembly be applied? Can it also maintain the shaft on plane? Can the left shoulder ever be "on plane"? These thoughts can drive one crazy? Or do they have answers?

The Bear

Isn't the left arm always pointing below plane?

Yes.

How can I get the right forearm on plane at impact without it being an elbow plane at that time?

Swing on the TSP. If the Elbow and #3 PP are on plane, then the Right Forearm is on plane.

What plane are we on at follow through?

The Same as the one used for Impact.

Is the "plane" we are on only defined where we start down from? Is it the one we shift to? Is it definable after release? If I shift planes am I just moving to a new "top" position? Like "Happy Gilmore"?

The Impact Plane is where you should focus. What is the Angle of Inclination of the Golf Clubs Sweet-spot at Impact? Try to maintain the same Angle throughout the Swing.

When #4 has the left arm on the chest and I use axis tilt won't I launch my inert left arm into center field?

If the #4 Pressure is on Plane then the #3 Pressure Point will be Launched On Plane.

Are there some alignments and transitions that go beyond definition?

No. No mystery.

Is there always some wobble and throw away because we are dealing with wrists and elbows and shoulders that have limitations?

No. EA eliminates wobble and there is no Throw-away with EA.


And we have strict "rules" for their alignment at all times?

Yes.

Does 1-L have both a primary and secondary lever assembly? If the primary lever assembly is maintained on plane can the secondary lever asembly be applied?

The Primary Lever is the Left Arm and Clubshaft combined. The Secondary Lever is the Clubshaft.

Can it also maintain the shaft on plane?

Yes.

Can the left shoulder ever be "on plane"?

Yes.

These thoughts can drive one crazy? Or do they have answers?

The Answers will also drive you crazy for awhile.

But isn't the TSP defined as a flat back turn? Can't the TSP also be the elbow plane at impact? Then there would be no shift? I can't control both the right shoulder on plane and the left shoulder "plane" so don't we take what we get Re: the left shoulder? Doesn't #4 "slide" down the left side before release? Isn't it just the "right" triangle that lays on the plane. (3 points- right shoulder, #3 pp, sweet spot- form triangle)? Doesn't the left triangle roll or swivel to vertical to the plane through impact? Isn't this mainly a pivot thing? The game is played in front of the torso between the shoulders? Dont the hands practice this so they can direct the moving parts? And, Every time I experiment I have a whole new rhythm thing to get back to? I think my aiming point is not on any imperative line but on its own delivery line that is near the outside of my left toe? Does that sound right?

But isn't the TSP defined as a flat back turn?

No.


Can't the TSP also be the elbow plane at impact?

No.


Then there would be no shift?

And no Right Shoulder Support.


I can't control both the right shoulder on plane and the left shoulder "plane" so don't we take what we get Re: the left shoulder? Doesn't #4 "slide" down the left side before release?

No. No. and No.


Isn't it just the "right" triangle that lays on the plane. (3 points- right shoulder, #3 pp, sweet spot- form triangle)?

#3 PP, Right Shoulder and the Sweet-Spot of the Clubhead.

Doesn't the left triangle roll or swivel to vertical to the plane through impact?

The Left Wrist should be Level and Vertical.

Isn't this mainly a pivot thing? The game is played in front of the torso between the shoulders? Dont the hands practice this so they can direct the moving parts? And, Every time I experiment I have a whole new rhythm thing to get back to? I think my aiming point is not on any imperative line but on its own delivery line that is near the outside of my left toe? Does that sound right?[/quote]

You're on the Elbow Plane.


Why would you pull the Club and #3 PP straight Down toward the ground from the Top of the Swing, when the Ball is Located on the Plane Line?

Why would you Shift Planes when you don't have to?

But isn't the TSP defined as a flat back turn?

No.

I meant flat back shoulder turn


Can't the TSP also be the elbow plane at impact?

No.

Depends on how far back and where the top "is"


Then there would be no shift?

And no Right Shoulder Support.


I can't control both the right shoulder on plane and the left shoulder "plane" so don't we take what we get Re: the left shoulder? Doesn't #4 "slide" down the left side before release?

No. No. and No.

Looking at mine that is what I do.

Isn't it just the "right" triangle that lays on the plane. (3 points- right shoulder, #3 pp, sweet spot- form triangle)?

#3 PP, Right Shoulder and the Sweet-Spot of the Clubhead.

Doesn't the left triangle roll or swivel to vertical to the plane through impact?

The Left Wrist should be Level and Vertical.
And the wrist fixes the flat side of the triangle??

Isn't this mainly a pivot thing? The game is played in front of the torso between the shoulders? Dont the hands practice this so they can direct the moving parts? And, Every time I experiment I have a whole new rhythm thing to get back to? I think my aiming point is not on any imperative line but on its own delivery line that is near the outside of my left toe? Does that sound right?[/quote]

You're on the Elbow Plane.

At impact, I believe so





I don't. but because the left shoulder moves UP as the right goes DOWN the left wrist is in a level (cocked, level, uncocked) and vertical to the plane at impact.

I try not to. I think that is a optical illusion due to the right forearm pitched out ahead of the right shoulder as it chases down plane.


Is there same good example(s) of only TSP swingers/hitters?

Is there some good example(s) of only elbow plane swingers?

The broblem(s) is/are that:

#3 accumulator is less than adequate with pure TSP, If a swinger releases #4 before impact power package lag goes away, intentional plane shifts become an uncoordinated "gobbeltygook". Three imperatives- the ponderance of not only how to acomplish them but ALSO the consequences, both good and bad, of their succssful/uncessful execution.

Watching video there appears to be two ways players plane shift. Drop the hands from the TSP to the Elbow plane (Homer Kelley TGM book Plane shift). Drop the head/torso but still swing on the TSP plane Tiger style plane shift swing from several years ago.
Anyone else agree?

I believe there are many ways to plane shift. Some require many compensations, but they are all valid. See Mr. Furyk. I enjoy striving towards the minimal shift of Mr. Gay.






Kevin

Like this;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN-GA8CUCy0

??

The Bear

Players like Camilo Villegas such as Byron Nelson and some Tiger Woods, Drop their Posture to the Elbow Plane to avoid the "Vertical Drop" typical of the Hogan Style Elbow Plane. This is Hands Controlled Pivot on the Elbow Plane. These Players are completely aware of their Lag Pressure and want to drive it "Straight to the Ball" and avoid the typical Plane Shift.


Thanks for the Video of Camilo Villegas HungryBear, he has awesome physical ability.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN-GA8CUCy0

Yes, but Vegas has the elbow as close to his hip as he can @ impact. So this is not an "upper body TSP motion" on the EP.

A note about Tiger: He moves his neck down and up again, but he keeps his hips more level than most throughout the swing. The alternative is to keep the neck level and move the hips up and down and up.

When you think about where the swing center is (where the sweet spot plane meets the torso), it may not as bobby as by first sight to move the head and keep the hips level.