Turned Shoulder Plane, Elbow Plane, etc
 

Is the Turned Shoulder plane basically more upright (J. Nicklaus) vs. the Elbow plane being flatter (aka Hogan).

Please explain as I really dont quite understand this.

yes, the elbow plane is 'flatter' than the turned shoulder plane, which is flatter than the squared shoulder plane, which is flatter than the "turning" shoulder plane (in 'feel' if not in reality)

The more upright, the less of a 'cone' and the straighter the delivery path of the hands 'can' be

10-6-D......

"Its most obvious feature is the verticle line of muscular effort - an inclined plane with a verticle force. It is extremely effective and dynamically correct. Study 2-L#2, 2-N-1 and 2P."

Nicklaus.....

My swing has traditioanlly been long (too long), and upright, and ugly...... So, with the help of Lynn last year, I have been applying extensor action with my right hand and slowly change the shape of my swing. More swinger throughout action via the pivot

So, on what plane would you characterise hogan, immelman, player, c. campbell. Whatever that is, its what I am trying to immulate. It will help me focus on the right discussions.
Thanks.

Turned Shoulder Plane - per 12-1 or 12-2

This provides the best combination of power and accuracy - and ability to work the ball.

More upright planes can be useful, but tend towards requiring a fade (Hoch, Litzkie)

In both pics, the yellow line is the Turned Shoulder Plane (from ball through Top-of-stroke right shoulder position). Pink line = Elbow Plane (from ball through Address right elbow position). Blue line is clubshaft angle at Address.

Toms is a little underplane at Impact BTW.

Ah!, thanks Bird Man (are you also a Coltrane fan). Anyway, I like the plane VJ is comming down on much better than that of Toms (for me).

Its strikes me that Hogan, Player, etc were on an even flatter plane than the pictures shown here (not by a lot, but, still flatter). Would theres not be called elbow plane. If not, is anyone on the elbow plane?

Never heard of Coltrane....

Is it this guy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Coltrane

I like mostly rock.....Jimi, Zep, Floyd, Dylan, Neil Young, Petty, Ozzy, Metallica, RageAgainstTheMachine, Cash, Skynyrd, etc....any rock that's good.

Coltrane.... one of my "favorite things"

A true jazz original who took "Giant Steps" forward.

Hmmmmmm....actually "Giant Steps" was the last album that featured Coltrane playing in a be-bop style (high level of course)....look to Miles Davis's "Kind of Blue" to Coltrane's transition to modal improvisation and the beginning of his Giant Steps...

DG

Hogan "looked" flatter because he had SUPER FLEXIBLE wrists that gave him a whole lot of wrist cock with very very little arm swing.

Also, i'd also recommend to learn how to trace a straight plane line on whatever plane you naturally swing on. If you are trying to change what plane angle you swing on just "cuz" you will ruin your swing long term.

I think most shift to the turned shoulder plane or the squared shoulder plane, either with a single from elbow upward to the 'shoulders' or even double returning back to elbow. How the hands are set at address will help your chosen swing plane, too.

I often hear that Watson "single planed" on one of the shoulder planes but watch the vids (although time changes people swings), he started on elbow and single shifted (quickly) to the shoulder, turned , I think.

Don't get trapped into thinking a shift is no-no. If it feels right, do it.


Charlie Parker was "Bird"

Looks like VJ is on the elbow plane at impact.

VJ is a double shifter like me:

sets up on the elbow plane
shifts to the turned shoulder plane on the backswing (1)
shifts back down to the elbow plane on the downswing (2)

No Shift
 

Does anyone have photos or links to a swing with Zero shift?

MattsDad:

Toms in the above pictures is pretty close....you can also view this link which shows Ted Fort (Luke the Nuke aka YodasLuke) from here on the site.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/assets/...eAnalysis.html

He stays pretty close to zero shift.

Thanks. I'll take a look at Ted's swing.

Regarding Toms, the sweetspot stays pretty close to the turned shoulder plane throughout (just slightly higher at End), but the shaft starts out much flatter at address. Wouldn't this be a single shift, or does one reference the sweetspot when talking about plane shifts?

RT

Jim
 

Jim

"Hogan "looked" flatter because he had SUPER FLEXIBLE wrists that gave him a whole lot of wrist cock with very very little arm swing."

His wrists may have been very flexible. But is was his Right shoulder flexibility that allowed him to get so flat. That is how he was able to get his right forearm vertical at the end of his backswing. Most people do not have that range of motion in their shoulders.

could you explain what is right shoulder flexibility? thnxs

I share the same sentiments as Mike here. At times, I do teach a shift to the elbow plane if it helps the student drive the right shoulder down the plane instead of around it.

It's like what Peter Drucker used to say, "Manage by exception, not by rule."

Hogan's secret (three letter word) is found in this clip
http://www.megspace.com/sports/moeto...demo_clip.html.

Guess its LAG then:???:

Again, you are being fooled. He is not flat, he just LOOKS that way because the swing is so short and there is so much wrist cock.

I can put my hands in the same position as Hogan but since my wrists are not noodles the club will look much more "on plane." If hogan didn't have so much wrist cock and just kept moving his hands up the plane, he'd look what everyone today considers "Normal."

This is true this is true...

...

Look at the pic of a Double Shift or Single Shift in TGM....if you have the book...

The hands go to the inside (i.e. under the Turned Shoulder Plane) until about halfway back....when they are done that route (you can only go inside so much....i.e. whe the right elbow has stopped folding, the right arm will want to lift the club to the TSP) they start going up towards the TSPlane.

Check VJ:



...

Can you see what it would look like if VJ stopped his backswing short of where he did? Now envision it stopped short, with enough wristcock to make the shaft parallel to the ground (without Double-Cocking, most people will never come close to being able to do that with a short backswing)....

Can you see how this creates the illusion of a "full" swing?