Hacker's eyerolling questions- please help!
 

O.K. guys, allow me to introduce myself. I am a 38 year old male, 6'1, 180, right handed, in pretty good shape, who discovered TGM via the GEA website, and am now a convert. I first played golf 5 years ago, and fell in love with it. I shoot in the 90s.. I hit my driver about 220, my seven iron about 135 carry, 10 roll, pitching wedge 100 carry on the button. My distances have always been pathetic, because I could never compress the ball, rarely took divots and would always hit line drives; in fact the only clubs I ever hit somewhat high are my pw and sw. Pretty sad, I know- I just wanted to give you a little background so you can see what you're dealing with- your garden variety sucky golfer. Anyway, I bought the Little Yellow Book and have been reading posts on here for a month now. I want to learn to hit, and last week I went out in freezing Brooklyn and dropped some balls (had the local dogtrack all to myself) and tried the "hitting" swing (or at least my inept/newbie version of what I think it might be). I thought about nothing but trying to drive pp1 down and out at the ball (yes, I know- it should be PAST the ball, but we're talking baby steps here) and gentlemen, VIOLA- I started hitting high draws FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE! Now granted, I fatted a ton of balls, and also hit some of my "low line drive" draws, but the point is that SOME of the shots came off better than I'd EVER hit an iron in my life. Which makes sense, because I'd never, ever, ever tried to hit the ball "out to right field." Ever. I'd always come more or less down the line (probably out to in) and kind of slapped the ball toward the hole. Anyway, even with my ferociously imperfect version of "hitting," I could see light at the end of the tunnel, just based on the shots that did come off as planned. Naturally, I have loads of questions, and if you graciously take the time to answer any of them, try to give me plain english COMBINED with the book (if you must use the book)- because I'm lost as far as the book goes (for example, I just learned that rolling your arms is the "swivel" -----because BlackJackNY translated the term for me!!). Also- think of the answering of my inane queries as helping all of the other total TGM novices out there- and I'll bet our numbers are growing. Believe me when I say that I will make a treck to see Ted at the swamp this summer- but until then, I'm gonna ask my childlike questions and hope some kind soul takes mercy on my ignorance. So here goes...

1) The grip- should it be in the PALM of my left hand? And how about the right- should it be in the fingers of the right? Because I think I remember someone saying "in the cup of the right," which for me is impossible- in order for me to have the middle of my right hand heel pad pressing down on the bottom of my left thumb pad, the grip's gotta be in my right FINGERS. The only way to have it in the "cup" of my RIGHT hand would be if my hand was twice as large as it is. Unless I'm missing something, which I probably am. Also- tight or loose? And should I be pressing pp1 and trying to keep my right wrist bent throughout the entire swing?

2) Stance: err toward the narrower side of things or the wider side of things?

3) Ball Position: err toward forward or backward? Err toward standing closer to it or farther from it?

4) Shaft: "in line with the right forearm at address"- what does that mean? I know this may sound realy stupid, but does "in line" mean literally as if the shaft and my right forearm form one straight, unbroken stick? If so, then, for me at least, this necessitates my dropping the right elbow down a couple of inches in order to achieve this, which feels really unnatural and convoluted.

5) Takeaway: STRAIGHT back (meaning clubface looking at the ball as long as possible) or what? When I do this, it seems as though I have to almost re-route the club back behind me and to the indide (after getting to the top) in order to hit from the inside and down-and out. I know this is an awful explanation so let me put it another way- straight back feels like a steep plane, which isn't a problem in and of itself, but then I'm hitting out to right field, so my kind-of straighter/steeper plane must now change to a new, more back-and-inside-and-behind-me one, in order that I may come from there into the inside, bottom left quadrant of the ball. What am I missing? Again, sorry for the horribly phrased question(s)- I'm doing my best. Another thing- what does Right Forearm Pickup mean, exactly? Lift the club "up" immediately or pull it straight back with the right forearm AND THEN move up? Or some combination?

5) Maintaining the FLW/BRW: all the way past the ball? My God- how?

6) Target: Since I'm coming from the inside out, shouldn't my "target line" be an inch or so outside of the top right hand corner of the ball? I mean, my clubface obviously points toward my real target (the flag, or whatever), but shouldn't I be concentrating on "right field," including looking out there before I swing? After all, isn't that where I'm trying to go, directionally, with the club? Aren't I trying to hit down and out on a more or less 45* angle to the actual, desired, intended line of flight?

7) Hips: Bumping toward right field to begin the downswing, or no? And if yes- is there anyway I can forget about them and concentrate solely on my upper body (hands, forearm, whatever)- because everytime I add some lower body downswing trigger, I mess something else up/forget something I'm supposed to do. Can I "forget" about my lower body or do I need to consciously do something? Also, how much should my hips turn on the backswing?

8) Practicing in my living room: what should I be doing initially?

That's it for now. I apologize for the length of this post. Any help anyone can give me would be GREATLY appreciated.

hopeful instead of hopeless
 

WOW! Aren't you full of questions??!! First of all, welcome to the journey. Remember, it's not a destination. Some of these are very general and I'll answer them as such. I hope it helps.

"The grip- should it be in the PALM of my left hand?"

Yes.

"And how about the right- should it be in the fingers of the right?"

The pad of the first joint of the first finger (#3 pressure point) should be on the aft side of the shaft, and the left thumb should fit in the cup of the right hand. If holding a wooden dowel with only the right hand, it would fit in the cup.

"Also- tight or loose?"

Your hands are clamps. You don't want loose clamps.

"And should I be pressing pp1 and trying to keep my right wrist bent throughout the entire swing?"

For a hitter starting at impact address, yes. It starts bent and stays bent (frozen).

"Stance: err toward the narrower side of things or the wider side of things?"

Both: Driver=wide, SW=narrow

"Ball Position: err toward forward or backward?"

SW=middle, Driver=forward

"Err toward standing closer to it or farther from it?"

It depends on who you are. I've seen exaggerations of both. Get the alignments of the hands and arms right and I'll bet you'll be the right distance away. DO NOT "let the arms hang comfortably."

"Shaft: "in line with the right forearm at address"- what does that mean? I know this may sound really stupid, but does "in line" mean literally as if the shaft and my right forearm form one straight, unbroken stick? If so, then, for me at least, this necessitates my dropping the right elbow down a couple of inches in order to achieve this, which feels really unnatural and convoluted."

Maybe unnatural compared to your 'normal'. It would be a perfectly straight line until you add wrist bend, but it's still on the same plane.

"Takeaway: STRAIGHT back (meaning clubface looking at the ball as long as possible) or what? When I do this, it seems as though I have to almost re-route the club back behind me and to the inside (after getting to the top) in order to hit from the inside and down-and out. I know this is an awful explanation so let me put it another way- straight back feels like a steep plane, which isn't a problem in and of itself, but then I'm hitting out to right field, so my kind-of straighter/steeper plane must now change to a new, more back-and-inside-and-behind-me one, in order that I may come from there into the inside, bottom left quadrant of the ball. What am I missing? Again, sorry for the horribly phrased question(s)- I'm doing my best."

The cubface opens and closes. Don't keep it square.


"Another thing- what does Right Forearm Pickup mean, exactly? Lift the club "up" immediately or pull it straight back with the right forearm AND THEN move up? Or some combination?"

The body pivot (horizontal rotation) along with the bending of the right elbow (vertical lifting) creates an angled plane. It's not around then up, and it's not up then around, it's up and around simultaneously.

"Maintaining the FLW/BRW: all the way past the ball? My God- how?"

Pressure

"Target: Since I'm coming from the inside out, shouldn't my "target line" be an inch or so outside of the top right hand corner of the ball? I mean, my clubface obviously points toward my real target (the flag, or whatever), but shouldn't I be concentrating on "right field," including looking out there before I swing? After all, isn't that where I'm trying to go, directionally, with the club? Aren't I trying to hit down and out on a more or less 45* angle to the actual, desired, intended line of flight?"

See the geometry of the circle that Yoda drew for 12piece. It's in 12piece's room. You need to see the three dimensional geometry of the circle.

"Hips: Bumping toward right field to begin the downswing, or no?"

It depends on your delivery line.

"And if yes- is there anyway I can forget about them and concentrate solely on my upper body (hands, forearm, whatever)- because every time I add some lower body downswing trigger, I mess something else up/forget something I'm supposed to do. Can I "forget" about my lower body or do I need to consciously do something?"

9-1; "Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot."

"Also, how much should my hips turn on the backswing?"

Enough to get the right shoulder on plane.

"Practicing in my living room: what should I be doing initially?"

Get an impact bag and some dowels. Get the address alignments and learn impact fix.

WHEW! My brain hurts. ;)

Read, and Incubate!
 

Hacker,
Read what Ted has written, and incubate! So much of what we learn needs to soak in. I have spent this winter going thru old posts and copying and pasting what I thought were appropriate were for a hitter. Last week I finally got my first range session in in 2 months, and I was smoking the ball. Even hit 5 3 woods off the deck on a stright line, and I can never do that! Anyway, assimilate, learn, and be patient. It'll come. And, if you want to play a round this spring, let me know!

Thanks to both of you guys.
BlackJack- you've helped me on GEA, greatly.
Ted- brother, I'm the guy (twan55 on GEA) who had to go to Berlin this summer for work and therefore missed the Long Island sessions and was distraught about it. I'm coming to see you, come hell or highwater, this summer (if possible, in June).
I hope you guys realize that just by applying and doing MAYBE one thing correctly, I hit some shots the other day that I personally have never hit in my five years of playing. Honest. I believe in the book. Dukenasty's posts did it for me.
All of you guys are patient as all get out with guys like me, and I appreciate it. I'm trying to decipher the book, but it's hard, and I DO NOT WANT TO INGRAINE THE WRONG THINGS. That scares me more than anything else.
Two last questions, to you or anybody else...
-what would you say is the most common mistake beginning hitters make, i.e., what should I ESPECIALLY try to avoid?
-Is Brian Manzella's "Confessions of a former flipper" CD a good buy?
Once again, thanks.

Hitting Pitfalls
 

Trying to Hit too hard and being too rigid or 'wooden'. Remember that tremendous energy can be consumed in trying to offset conflicting alignments, without ever achieving your full speed potential.

Yes, it's a good buy. It's Swinging based, so make sure you filter out the relevant information.

Newbie too
 

I have been a convert for a while now and would highly recommend the following to get you on the right track:

1. Look at all the video here....first and download them for future looks too. Yoda has a DVD coming so be on the look out, I expect it will be at the top of my list.

2. I highly recommend videos from Manzella's site especially former flipper and building blocks (which is new). The building blocks is great since it starts with grip and moves on to chips, pitches and full swing info.

3. I also love Bobby Schaeffer videos from OHP, especially the one on illusions and the one that discusses the full swing (Ultimate Power swing....title off but close).

4. And finally, if that is not enough, I like the DVD from Chuck Evans but if you do the above, you have it all anyway.

Hope this help. Good luck.

I too was like you (20 plus years) of slices, and no divot. Fixed both in about a month of hitting chips and pitches, working on impact bag, dowels, flashlights, and tennis racquets (search on this site for how to do drills).

Keys for me were getting a true neutral grip, setting flying wedges, and aiming point with hands.

We are similar in size and build (I do hit it a bit further, lifted weights as a youngster) but now kill the ball off the tee (260-280) and my irons are much, much better with low boring trajectory. Still have some fat shots (too much lateral slide) and do hit off line sometimes (used to lining up for slice) but all in all, much, much, much better after 8 months. I did spend a month or two just hitting chips and pitches with my 7, 8, 9, PW, Lob and Sand Wedges before I moved to a full swing and/or my woods. Lucky for me, I am in Texas so the weather is great almost the entire year.

Good luck. By the way, I don't make money from anyone on any site but am passing on what worked for me. Also, these are all for swingers (which I am) but much is the same (accumulators, etc).

Mechanics...Not Magic Or Miracles
 

And so it goes...

:)

Sand Trap
 

I've also just been getting started - spent a few nights up till the wee hours reading the book and the archives, watching videos, etc.

The only not at home practice I've been trying to do the last few days is get in a bunker and hit small chips while trying to hit the ball first and then take a divot. At first it was extremely frustrating because I couldn't make clean contact for many many hours. It's amazing how impossible it felt at first.

I think I've tracked it down to a flaw in my pivot - my hips were rotating by my right hip coming forward causing my right arm to get closer to the ball and leading to a super fat shot. Things have vastly improved when I work on getting my left knee straight and making sure I preserve the angle in my left hip socket - it leads me to pivot by pulling my left hip back. After this - I've been able to finally hit down with some precision and I've been making much better contact. I think the bad pivot was caused by a subconscious desire to hit up on the ball.

I've seen Ben Doyle's bunker lesson without the ball but I think there might also be a lot of advantages to chipping with a ball: You can easily see the divot and if you hit it fat you'll know for sure. I've chipped many times on a carpet or grass and you can fool yourself into thinking you're chipping it well because it's so forgiving. I hope there are no downsides to this practice routine.

I just wanted to welcome these new guys, though I'm still pretty new as well. Keep up the work and soon things will start to click. First one ball, then two, then a dozen. Dowels, the videos here and Manzella's are great resources.

Seize the Day!
 

Why wait until June, hopefulhacker? Come and see us at Old Waverly on April 21-23! You will learn in a truly magical environment from Ted, V.J., Tony and me, four Instructors totally dedicated to helping you improve your Game.

Jumpstart your summer season. Throw all those 'can't' reasons into the bin and reach for the 'can.'

Life is short.

Play hard and live it now. :)

It's responses like these that make me KNOW I've made the right decision. I WILL NOT turn back.

But man, do I have some WORK ahead of me.

Thanks for the support, guys.

Welcome to the forum.

"How to maintain the FLW past the ball."

Like Ted said....maintain Lag Pressure on the back of the shaft.....enough pressure and the clubhead won't take over so early.....(and if you get good at it....you will be able to make swings without it ever "taking over"...i.e. the LWrist NEVER Bends...I can hold it throughout the entire swing).

Takes practice.

This is the place for help
 

One thing I love about being a member here (and why I will buy whatever Yoda ever sells) is the open attitude toward all who seek help.

I am a member at all the current TGM sites (don't bother with GEA) and this site never shuts down a recommendation even if it is to visit another site. Everyone here is ALWAYS encouraging and helpful. It is a sure sign the administrators here are straight shooters who are trying to help.

Summer Visit
 

By the way, I am going to plan a trip for a real lesson in the summer. Yoda, do you have anything going in June or July yet?

I am saving my frequent flyer miles and pennies now.

:)

I agree. I get the gut feeling here that, in addition to making a living, Ted and Yoda want golfers to get better- period. And they KNOW that this is the best way to do it, because it's the TRUTH. I mean, this website is veritable wellspring of info! And all of the stuff on here makes me WANT to see Ted ASAP, if for no other reason than just to help me enjoy both the site and the book that much more! Also, I know of NO ONE that's seen Ted (or Yoda) that hasn't raved about them- RAVED. GOD I can't WAIT to get down to the swamp!

Swamp Time
 

Thanks for the kind comments, everybody. All of us here at LBG appreciate them.

As this business has continued to grow and grow, I've learned that my lesson book tends to blacken up about 45 days in advance. Ted's is the same way. So, while opportunities exist in March and April, they are dwindling. The month of May is more open, as is June. There is an extra special corporate event in the works for the week before the U.S. Open, but it is too early for me to announce. So, Kevin, when you're ready, drop me a PM, and we will set it up.

Meanwhile, if there is any possible way to make the Old Waverly Academy, I encourage you to reserve your spot now. Though the event is almost seven weeks away, we already are one-third filled, and I have several emails saying registrations are pending. This will be a truly great experience, and I sincerely recommend that anyone interested sign up now.

Wow... congrats on gettin out on either Dyker or Marine Park at this time of the year. Like Ted said, it is a journey... at times it has been 2 steps forward and one step back for me. I seem to do well for a stretch and then forget what got me there.. but that is another story. I'd suggest you see Ted or Lynn as soon as possible (yes...I'm a raver too). As much as the book is the 'truth' it is still hard to undertand or maybe interpret. It becomes a wonderful reference when you've had someone demonstrate what is necessary. I've seen Ted twice in the last year, and the last time I found I was still mixing components. It is easy to do, and it will save you a bunch of time if you can prevent it.

Yoda&Ted
 

Anyone thinking of going to see Yoda or Ted has just GOT TO GO!.I visited the swamp last year for 2 days.I would strongly recommend it to anyone who is prepared to put in the time and effort.Good lessons are not cheap but compare the cost of seeing a "top 100"instructor-some of whom change their philosophy every couple of years-and there is no contest.Lynn also invited me to Orange County National for an additional lesson free of charge.They are both in it for the love of teaching and are worth EVERY PENNY.I hope Waverly doesn't fill up until Ifind out next week whether I can make it !:smile:

PSheehan- we've spoken before- at GEA. You're another one whose postings (inadvertently) brought me over to the "force." The difference is (if I remember your story correctly) that you were already a good golfer, whereas I suck. I'm sure you read my original post- I'm not making that stuff up. 7 iron 135 carry! I mean, WTF is up with that? That's woeful, by anyone's standards. And I'm not talking about macho, "I can smoke my driver 290" sort of stuff, I'm talking "I have decent strength and eye/hand coordination yet hit the ball like a child!" stuff.

My distances ALONE tell me something's wrong, something's FUNDAMENTALLY wrong. Which of course it is- I'm getting almost zero compression, sustainning precous little lag, and coming from the wrong direction. (Actually, with all of those mistakes it's a wonder I can regularly shoot in the 90s!)

One of the first things that TGM taught me is to hit DOWN and (and this for me is by far the most important point on earth) OUT. The "OUT" part I never got before, not in five years of playing this incredible game, yet it's so vital, so IMPERATIVE, that without it, good golf is almost impossible.

It's what Tomassello talks about (again, all credit to Homer Kelley for teaching this guy and Lynn for providing his videos, free of charge!) when he says "out to right field, down the first base line" etc.-- not AT the target!"

I could never get this fundamental into my cranium- to me, "out to right field" is exactly where I DID NOT want to go- I was terrified of "right field." As soon as I changed just this one simple little thought I hit the ball differently than I'd ever hit it before- A high draw.

Now again, I'm still hopeless at golf- but a light went on when I hit that shot. One of those "oh...so THAT'S what they mean by 'out'!" I was hooked, for good, last Wednesday at Dyker, while hitting balls alone in the freezing cold. It was the moment where I said "that's it, I'm gonna stay with this way of learning golf, gonna COMMIT to it. And I will. And as I improve and become an 80s shooter (I have modest goals) I'm gonna remember guys like you and DukeNasty who intoduced me to the world of TGM--- AS TAUGHT BY TED AND LYNN!

Down is where the ball is, yet try to tell golfers that you hit down on the ball and they say no sweep it off the ground. You sweep dust or crush down on golf balls. And since its location is not even low point, sweep isn’t even relative. Good job hfh.

Hitting to right field is the direction of the clubhead not the delivery path of the hands. Hitters really “drive” the ball to right field. But the hands still trace the plane line- the clubhead can’t trace the plane.

Swingers hit the ball less to right field as the clubhead whirls and the hands- still on the plane line- swivels to prevent throwaway. More like right center to center field.

I may regret writing this but.... this is why I think TT “Hits” because of the active (and greatly so) right forearm to right field.

hfh- add your name to the frapper map if you can- :p

Careful...
 

HH,
Be careful with Tommy's videos. There'a a lot of good stuff, but he seems almost disdainful of a hitting stroke. If you want to learn to hit, get dowels and an impact bag. The Izzo one is really cheap.
Btw, ever play out on the Island?

Now, Now.

The TT videos are outstanding. No one, certainly not many, understood the Hit Pattern as taught by Yoda. The Hit stroke was either a punch shot, which it can be, or a shot for big heavy set, barrel chested men. Once the Hit pattern was explored, it became more than a speciality shot. Lynn's foot print in TGM.

The best thing I discovered about the TT tapes (thanks to Dr. Annikan) is how wonderful, in either pattern, it is to straighten that right arm via the unfolding elbow. That unfolding action makes sure the hands still trace the plane line to its aiming point/adjusted hands position. Once the right arm is straight the role of the arms is complete and the hand swivel and pivot finishes the stroke.

Lots to learn from the TT vids.

don't fret
 

My first ace was with a 9 iron from 110 yards. Now, I'd hit it 40 yards over the same green. So, don't worry about the distance problem. It can change.

Not all that come to us are 0 handicaps. If you look in the "Amazing Changes" you'll find elliskit that came from Nashville. All those changes happened in a few hours. Thanks to Homer and Lynn, I'm much better at helping people.

I agree. But I still find more to absorb(as a hitter) in the Doyle videos. And I am in no way barrel-chested!

Words to the newbees
 

Welcome to a fascinating lifelong quest !
Advise to the housebound snowbirds. Dig below the snow and get several handfuls of grass clippings. Place these on a mat or carpet sample and practise with a downward motion of a wedge scrubbing each tiny blade off over and over ad nauseum. Remember repetition is the mother of learning and come golf season that ball will loom very large and easy to compress !
Another great drill, weather permitting, is to go out in your backyard or field with your wedge and whack some weeds.
Remember, they are your enemy-so be sure to hit down to the roots to extract them totally. Great excercise, better than beating a tire carcass, impact bag or your dog.
Happy weed whacking-
See you on the course

Twan,
That light that went on is what got most of us into the teachings of Mr. Kelley as taught by Mr. Blake and Fort. I remember playing Dyker in the 60's (1960's not degrees)....There was an old car near the fence on one of the holes and the fairways were hard as a rock....

The great thing about TGM is it is a constant. Nothing changes, except your overall knowledge of the golf stroke and your own application of it......so you build on what you know. Overtime you just improve, how fast is dependent on whether you interpret the book and your needs correctly or how well the AI does that for you. With much conventional instruction you have no ultimate idea of what you are trying to achieve or what you need to change to improve. You get a 'technique' per lesson and sometimes they are contradictory. I had made a vow in 2003.. no more lessons. Ted changed that for me.

Try hard to make the trip down. LaGuardia to Atlanta ought to be an easy trip, and I promise it will take a bunch of time off your already scheduled golf game improvement journey. Ever run into Chris Sturge at Dyker?