Tomasello question
 

Not really sure where to post this as there is no right arm swing emergency room (although that'd be nice!).

DG or Coophitter - do you consider maintenance of the flex in the trail kneee a big part of Tom's method? I've been struggling with pulls a bit recently, and have been thinking its either from cocking the right wrist, going out at the ball ('OUT AT THE BALL!') before I go down, or (most likely) an overactive body. Today, after some experimentation, I found a focus on right knee flex really helped me slow my body rotation and stay on my right side longer in the downswing - also good extension in follow through - straighter shots and better contact.

My tendency has always to get a bit standard knee actionish - a straigtening right knee in the backswing. Is a focus on more of an anchored right knee a good way to go for a Tomasello style swing?

Thanks,
Chris

Yes, the anchored right knee is important but it helps one from bobbing (3-F-7-C), not sure if it prevents one from hooking the ball. When I hook (not often) the ball, it's either from tense/fatigued left arm muscles or I'm concentrating too much down (from the top) and not down and out (see 1-L #13 and 14). Checkout Tomasello's number 2 video from the "Letter Series"...Tommy talks about making a down and out move from the top. I suggest watching all of the Tomasello videos and writing down all of the drills that Tommy demonstrates and incorporate them into your practice routine. They work!!!

DG

Balancing Act
 

Through the centuries, most Golfers have straightened their Right Knee during the Backstroke and their Left Knee through the Ball. For this reason, Homer Kelley defined the procedure as Standard Knee Action (10-16-A). No less than Bobby Jones and Sam Snead demonstrated that it is highly effective.

Nevertheless, Homer designated Right Anchor (10-16-C) as the Stroke Pattern Variation in both 12-1-0 (Hitting) and 12-2-0 (Swinging). He chose the term 'Anchor' because, when the Golfer keeps the Right Knee Bent, "it feels and acts like the body has a solid anchor to the ground" (7-16). Personally, I have always used Right Anchor and found Homer's words both comforting and compelling. Beyond that, I was delighted to find that I had nothing to change as I adopted the Hitting and Swinging Stroke Pattern Components as listed.

Still, Homer Kelley would have been the last to mandate that a player use Right Anchor instead of Standard. I remember a conversation we had regarding Loading Action:

Young Yoda: Why do you recommend Snap Loading for Swingers?

Homer: I don't recommend anything.

Young Yoda: But it's in the Stroke Patterns...

Homer: I couldn't put all three in there!

:cool:

Still, and this is 'just me'...

I don't think you would find many Standard Actions on a BOSU Ball.

:)

Thanks for your replies,

DG - I think you may be right about bobbing. The problem with this is returning the head from the bob which can obviously cause all kinds of clubhead disruptions.

Yoda - today could really appreciate Homer's designation of the anchor - it is like being anchored to the ground. Coophitter mentioned in another thread that the Tomasello right forearm uncocking would cause a sitdown position as the body responded to the down of the club, and Brian, on one of his recent video shorts mentioned not overcommitting the right leg too early in the downswing. I think focusing on the right knee anchor helped me get closer to capturing these feels (versus a more typical spinout for me!)

Chris

Chris - Tomasello told me that the body does absolutely nothing purposefully to initiate the downswing. Just toss the club straight down into the ground with the right forearm. This is nothing new. Harry Vardon said the following things. 1)"The club, it will be noticed has been started on the downtrack without any alteration of the pose of the body." (2)"The club should start down without the body turning." (3)"The downswing starts by a dropping of the elbows. What you term a 'pull down' but even more so where a downswing follows a movement begun by a purely body action, such as full shifting of weight from right to left before the club gets under way, would surely be putting the cart before the horse. The clubs and arms must lead on the downswing, just as they should on the upswing. Not the hips and body first, which means shifting the weight as a preliminary to body turning, as so many teach. That would be good advice to follow if you wanted to cultivate body sway; but it is body action of every sort that you want to keep to a minimum." (4)"There may be the slightest shifting to the left, or bracing movement on starting down, but it should be very slight indeed." (5)"The main function of the body is to furnish leverage, but not power; of the wrists, a connection only, like a universal joint, between between the club and the golfer.They should not be used for propulsion." (6) "If I simply swing, largely with the arms and club,letting all the effort be the natural result of the swing, and not the thing that produced it, taking care that the club is leading all the way through and not the body or any part of it, the ball will be struck with the finest degree of delicacy but with enough percussion at the clubhead to whisk it away two hundred and fifty yards or more."

I think the bracing movement Vardon spoke of is an instinctive move to slow down and stop the backswing pivot so the right arm can can fire thereafter against the brace. So the little sit or hip slide we often talk about is actually a braking action to stop the backswing and give you some ground force to hit against. Think about Vardon for a second. Joe Norwood assisted Vardon on one of Vardon's American tours and studied his method assiduously. Tommy Armour studied Vardon assiduously. John Jacobs was also a convert, and Butch Harmon has all of his instructors read Jacobs' book as their required textbook. Harmon basically taught Woods to swing like Vardon. Keep that right heel down.

So if using a right anchor on the backswing helps you eliminate body muscling of any sort to start the downswing then do it. And keep asking Delaware about it, He knows his stuff. In fact, The right humerus probably initiates the right arm swing more so than the triceps, rendering right forearm action as more passive than Kelley or Tomasello thought during normal Hitting or "right arm swinging" strokes. I believe Delaware mentioned something like this in one of his posts.

Also consider the following quote from Frank Hannigan's foreword to A.W. Tillinghast's book, "Reminiscences on the Links": In Tillinghast, we have a link between the first national championship of the mid 1890's right on up to the era of Nelson, Hogan, and Snead. He both saw and played with almost all the greats. So it is fascinating that, when asked to pick his own all time Top Ten, the name at the top is Harry Vardon, not Bobby Jones, his number two pick. Vardon seems to us a relic, someone whose primary contribution was to bring 'rhythm' to the swing. But we somehow don't imagine Vardon being in the same league as a player whose moving images are preserved on film beginning with Jones. But Tillie says this, "Without hesitation, I name the great Harry Vardon as the peer of all golfers who ever lived. He was so close to absolute perfection, save for the occasional stabbing of his putts, that his monotonous immaculate stroking made the game absurdly simple."

We are asymetrical beings. If you are right arm dominant, get it ready and use it without delay. I don't think you'll inflame it with tendonitis, as some would say, unless you think you need to use it like a baseball pitcher. Pitchers don't have a club and must hurl their dominant arm much much faster than golfers do to create adequate velocity. Toss the arm lightly, smoothly and swiftly in both directions and let it lead throughout. There is nothing deliberate, slow, or heavy about it. Conduct a symphony with it, don't drag it around like a wet mop!

Given the difficulties most people have obtaining rhythm, I'd say that is quite a legacy. A very important thing, to get a 'grip' on Rhythm.

Thanks for your expertise Coop. I'm working daily on my right arm swing (or whatever it is!) at the moment, and it is feeling very good. I love the simplicity of this move. For me the hard part is learning not-to-do with the body. I'm pretty much self-taught and my first training manual was Swing Like a Pro - slide and turn the hips to initiate the downswing. This really didn't work for me and now I have to really work on stopping crazy hip and shoulder actions in my downswing! One of the(many) things I like about the Tomasello motion, is you seem to hit pretty good body positions even though its all reactive to the right arm movement.

This is instructive for me. Instinctively the right arm motion on longer shots at least, seems to want to start from the right shoulder, followed pretty quickly by an unbending of the right elbow (but this moevement can be quite passive). Its good to know this is OK.

Chris

Right Arm Simplicity
 

Interesting note from Tomasello's July 1991 interview in Golf Illustrated....

"Detrators--and there have been many--condemn the system as hopelessly complex and impossible to put into practical use (comments about TGM). A.J Tomasello is one of the very few (that includes Yoda :))who have been able to break down this intimidating array of laws into a few basic movements that, far from being impossilbe, can leave a student asking "Can the golf swing really be this simple?....

Then the interview concludes:

GI: How long before a student makes significant improvement?

Tomasello: I can give you documented examples of golfers with no previous record of success who started winning tournaments at various levels almost immediately. But the learning is never ending. The amount of time and dedication the golfer puts in determines how far he or she can go.

A comment from a Tomasello student...

"I started working with Tom Tomasello on The Golfing Machine in March 1984. At the time I was in danger of losing my tour card. I finished the year qualifying in 15 of the last 17 events and climbed from 250 to 35 on the Money list".

Jodie Mudd PGA TOUR

Sounds like this stuff works...

Coophitter,

I feel the right tricep in the right arm swing and the left arm swing is passive...it (right triceps) reacts to the triggering action of the right forearm (in a right arm accelerated stroke)...the Magic of the Right Forearm. I do not think about the right triceps at ALL, they just supply muscle power on their own just like they would in a momentum transfer swing. I believe that's why Tomasello used this approach...it has the advantage of using the dominant arm but it also produces accurate shots like the momentum transfer swing. Power and Accuracy....what more do you want.....one Burbon, one Scotch, one Beer, maybe....or maybe just a Bud Light!!!!! To GO....no standing at the bar, we've got golf shots to hitttttttttt.........

DG

I've been working on this 'right-hand' swing as well; it is the truth. My iron shots are so crisp that the sound of impact gives me a headache.

Tom
 

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The Tomasello Procedure does work. I had a very different FEELING or SENSATION of a golf stroke when using IT. At first IT may seem to go against what you have been previously taught, so IT may be difficult to let yourself go with the procedure.

IT IS MORE OF A BODY RESPONSE PROCEDURE.

If you are having fun and playing well using this procedure... well that is what golf is about.

After reading this particular thread yesterday and watching a the Tomasello video on the arms. I went home picked up a club and concentrated on letting my right elbow dominate my downswing as oppose to my left side, the difference was immediate and making good contact with the ball seemed almost effortless. I'm just starting out learning about TGM. But out of all the "methods" and theories there are out there this one seems the most logical and comprehensive out there. I'm excited about learning more about this. ;) ;)

ce_me_golf,

Here are a few words from Tommy Tomasello in his 1991 Golf Illustrated interview:

GI: What happens to the shots of a player who executes these moves?

Tomasello: The player will immediately hit the ball higher and straighter, and substantially longer. The flight pattern will be dead straight to its apex, with the ball falling a touch left or drawing fractionally as it decends.

If you stick with what Tommy teaches (give it 6 months) you too will be producing higher, straighter and substantially longer shots....Yeeee Hawwwwwww.

DG

What Tommy Tomaello Taught
 

I knew Tom Tomasello personally.

I talked golf with him intimately for many years.

During much of that time, we were both learning and discussing Homer Kelley's Star System of G.O.L.F.

Tommy was a fifty-ish retired Marine twenty years my senior working in the golf business. I was a thirty-ish, Honorably Discharged Air Force guy now graduated from Georgia Tech working in the financial business. Despite our enormous dissimilarites, we were brothers: We lived in the same town, shared the same passion and had the same dream; that is, finally unravelling the mysteries of the Golf Stroke. Oh so many times, we went mano-o-mano in close quarters -- I guess you could call 'close' my 12' X 50' mobile home (paid-for from the slim pickin's of my moonlighting cookware sales and the G.I. Bill) -- only to come out clinging to 'this book' or 'that book' and 'he said' or 'she said.'

Then came The Golfing Machine.

It hit us both like a ton of bricks.

Bobby Clampett was making his move and Ben Doyle was his mentor.

Words such as lag and drag and thrust were used for the first time, and we embraced the challenge of learning more.

Tommy went first to Homer Kelley -- in 1981. I followed in 1982.

Now, some twenty-five years later, I have had the privilege of watching many times on video my late friend deliver his message.

A message that has enabled so many -- from handicap player to TOUR champion -- to bridge the gap between 'can't' and 'can.'

Here is my conclusion:

Tommy didn't teach Right Arm Swing.

And he certainly didn't teach Hitting.

Tommy Tomasello taught Lag Pressure.

Lag Pressure and its consequent Clubhead Acceleration sensed by the Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point (Right Forefinger).

Lag Pressure as defined by Homer Kelley.

Lag Pressure as known by Ben Hogan and described in his book Five Lessons as "three right hands."

Lag Pressure as understood by Tommy Armour in his How To Play Your Best Golf All the Time and translated as "Whack the Hell out of the ball with your right hand."

Lag Pressure.

It is the Secret of Golf (6-C-2-0/A-E).

Yoda,

Tommy taught BOTH Hitting and Swinging...the swinging motion utilized right arm acceleration...it's a right arm swinging motion with longitudinal acceleration. Tommy didn't just "Sense" the right forearm he USED it.

Then tell us what the difference is between what Tomasello taught and right arm swinging...I'm sure there other forum members that want to know.

DG

I must admit, the more I get into Tom's procedures, the less I really care whether it's a right arm swing or not - more just whether it works!!!

That said, I wonder if the action involved in a non-automatic release for swingers is relevant here. Usually, this is presented in terms of a deliberate effort to begin to release accumulator #2 (wrist cock), for example in Yoda's classic post on the three stage rocket (drag load, uncock the left wrist, roll). But if the folded right elbow (with its level right wrist) causes the left wrist to cock, could not this non-automatic (or deliberate) uncocking of the left wrist be turned over to the deliberate unfolding of the right elbow? Similarly, any cocking of the left wrist on the backswing is analogous with folding the right elbow. In a nutshell, the right forearm cocks and uncocks, the pivot turns...

That's pretty much how I'm experiencing Tom's swing at the moment. Right arm swing - maybe not (I am 99.9% sure that the right elbow is not the low point in Tom's swing); right arm, or forearm controlled swing - very likely. Lag pressure - absolutely!

Chris

I watched a couple of Yoda's videos and I went to the range last night and work on right arm controlling the downswing. After having some issues with my setup, I absolutely crushed a drive and said to myself "How'd I do that?" :D :D

I proceeded to hit several more drives with much more consistency and distance than I've displayed recently. These are the first steps on my TGM journey.

After viewing the TT Video letters on this site how possibly can it be a right arm swing????
He is using the left arm karate chop with right arm extensor action.

I think you need to watch the Tomasello letter videos again and again and again...in Real Estate it's location, location, location....in TGM it's interpretation, interpretation, interpretation.

Tommy is throwing the club from the top with the right forearm...the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM. No left arm karate chop from Tomasello.

DG

Yes,

Long, High, Straight Drives are the order of the day with the Tomasello approach...long straight irons are the next order of business...kept practicing.

DG

DG,

So your interpetation of a CF swing is simply left arm motion only??

The right arm is useless except to hold on???

How do you execute the various throws in TGM if the right arm does not participate?

What about right arm extensor action?

How can there be a "magic of the right forearm" if your are not actively directing the right arm?

You better believe it, I'll be at the range again tomorrow. ;)

Dunno....I experimented with it briefly....an active pull-down with the right forearm from the top, that is....

Didn't work for me too well. I found it unstable...flimsy.

...

I hit a few very long drives....one of the longest in my life actually.....but it was hardcore downwind so I didn't overly pay attention to it.....

Most other shots were somewhat random.

...

BUT....I'm gonna experiment with it again....out of curiosity....we'll see what happens.

Ya gotta give it 6 months to 2 years of dedicated study and practice to see the true results...

Comments from Tomasello: "I can give you documented examples of golfers with no previous record of success who started winning tournaments at various levels almost immediately. But the learning is never-ending. The amount of time and dedication the golfer puts in determines how far he or she can go."

The Golfers included PGA and LPGA Pros....not just amateurs.

DG

I like having my right arm/ hand back.

I wonder what the impact of today's equipment, some of which is designed to help players get the ball higher, has on this.

It's got to be an asset in terms of distance and probably consistency. Especially if you are talking about today's cavity backed irons, as well as, hybrids.

I think that depends on your swing speed. Certainly for those with average speed and/or no real compression, todays irons are significantly more user friendly than those of 5-10 years ago or longer. Those with good compression and/or high swing speeds may fight ballooning with the newer irons - mostly, IMO, due to the grooves, and somewhat due to the moving of the center of gravity back (in effect, making a lagging clubhead a built in feature). I like to test new gear in a headwind to test if too much spin is going to be a factor.

That's kind of what I was thinking, which leads me to believe that once you pass a certain level you need to re-evaluate your gear. Some of the newer "players" cavity backs and muscle backs are being designed to keep the ball lower for the better player, which is why the new Titleist 695CB actually has jacked up lofts for a lower ball flight. I found this weird because of what Tommy says about his swing producing a higher ball flight as a good thing.

Right Anchor Knee Action
 

Could someone help me to understand how Yoda states in the above quote that he always used Right Anchor yet he teaches the Left, Right, Left Drill (see http://www.gothamgolfblog.com/2012/0...-blake-on.html) and strongly advocates the
MacDonald Exercises (see especially exercises 2 and 5) which involve the straightening of the right knee (not straightened completely so that it locks, but certainly seem to involve a straightening of the right knee that is inconsistent with Right Anchor Knee Action)?