Mid body hands clubface alignment
 

I have recently seen a video on Brian Manzella's website regarding slightly closed clubface at address with mid body hands to ensure correct clubface alignment at impact.

This makes sense and works well but is it in Homer's teaching or is it an addition from other authors?

Thanks for any help.

I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, but I think I remember something on Chuck's site that says that if you take your grip from impact fix and then move the hands back toward mid-body the clubface would appear slightly open for a swinger. A hitter would see a slightly closed clubface. But I think Chuck teaches a little bit of a different setup than Brian.

backwards

If you setup at impact fix, no matter where you're aiming the face and bring them back to mid-body the face will close progressively. Why? Because as you bend the left wrist it closes the face.

Same reason why you can 'flip at the ball' and still hit a draw ;)

Thanks Jim, this is exactly what i have found - actually gets quite closed when hands come to mid-body. I suppose that it depends abit on shoulder width , and hence stance width, in that the distance moved by the hands will be greater if the player has broad shoulders / wide stance rather than narrow shoulders / narrow stance. The more the hands move back the more closed the clubface.

Despite scaring a few onlookers with a closed-looking clubface I have been hitting the ball very straight!! I guess it shows how all the alignments are different between address and impact ( except clubshaft plane see 7-8 )

Did Homer actually write about this in the book or is it somewhere in those infamous "notes for 7th edition"? :)

In 7-9, Homer describes the "classic" address as "left wrist is bent, right wrist is flat, the clubface and clubshaft square (putting hands at a mid-body location)...)"

This seems to contradict the teaching of allow the clubface to be square at impact fix but then close as much as is natural as the hands move back to mid-body. Any ideas ?:confused:

Look in 2-J-1. "The Clubface must be exactly square to the Target Line only at the Point of Separation. So the Clubface alignment at Impact Fix must fit the selected hinge action. For Horizontal Hinging, it is slightly 'Open' at Impact Fix to allow for 'Closing' during Impact. The longer the shot, the more 'Open'."

Correct
 

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rchang is correct. At mid-body hands ADDRESS the clubface should not be the same as at FIX. It will most likely look slightly closed.

The mid-body hands makes it a little easier to keep the shaft on the inclined plane angle during the TAKEAWAY. Starting from FIX, where the face will probably be slightly OPEN(SWINGER), makes it very easy to get the shaft and clubhead IN too much during the TAKEAWAY.

lagster, thanks for THAT tidbit. I usually start from impact fix, and always took the clubhead way too inside. Got to work on that mid-body hands

Jim,

This is interesting. If I set up at impact fix, and then move my hands back to midbody, I seem to be able to keep the clubface aligned as it was (as if the leading edge was attached to the ground with a hinge), or close or open the face. The first seems the most natural to me - simply layback the shaft. It seems to depend on what amount of shaft (or is that sweetspot) rotation you allow for. Perhaps this is why some/many flippers don't hit draws - different types of flips. I'll experiment with closing as I go to adjusted address as you suggest.

Chris

So I went back and looked at a video on Chuck's site where he talks about the differences between swinging and hitting. In the video he takes his grip at lowpoint and then rotates back to the ball, which leaves the clubface pointing slightly to the right. The key here is that it looks as if his hands are still a bit forward of midpoint -- more like inside of his thigh. Hitting sets up a little differently and leaves the clubface more closed.

The clubface will be slightly closed IF we make no attempt to keep it open/square/whatever when moving from Fix to Adjusted Address. But why shouldn't we? Since we set the flying wedges in the backstoke and not at address, what does it matter if we manipulate the wrists a little from fix to mid body?

if you setup with a square stance and square shoulders and take your grip at impact fix and move them to mid body the face will appear closed.

If you have them foward of mid body the face can be "less closed." I personally do not use mid-body hands, it is too far "back." I use something in between impact fix and mid body and thus my face doesn't look so closed.

Yeah, IF you make no attempt to manipulate it square. Why shouldn't we?

The clubface alignment at fix and mid-body hands can only the same if the wrist is no longer vertical at adjusted address. It is ideally vertical at impact and advisedly vertical at address - by my reading of the book.

Keeping wrist vertical and moving from impact fix to mid-body always moves the clubface more closed. Why do you want to manipulate wrist condition at adjusted address to keep the alignment look "normal" ? If your manipulation is consistent then it won't matter but most manipulations ( malalignments) are advised against in TGM, at least the way I read the book. Yes you can do what you like, there are 3 trillion swings etc... but why chose a less efficient alignment to start your swing from??? It surely means that you are compensating from the start of your swing?

I find it entirely possible to keep the left wrist level when moving the hands from fix to mid body, whilst keeping the clubface square or even open to the plane line. I do that by not only bending the left wrist but also turning it. Now even if I'm wrong and that isn't the case, I still don't see it as a problem worth worrying about. Adjusted address is a compensation, we have many alignments that we don't want anywhere near impact, yet it works just fine. We start with a bent left wrist and make it flat, why not also make it level (not that I think that would be neccessary)? How much of an impact could that possibly have on ball flight and repeatability? I reckon if a golfer doesn't like the look of a closed clubface at adjusted address, so be it. Take the grip at Fix and manipulate the face square as they move their hands to mid body. JMHO. Maybe we should all just start from Fix and avoid any possible complications/manipulations/malalignments...

It's not a problem, but your left wrist isn't vertical if you have allowed it to turn at the setup. That's why you can keep it square or even open.

Also i don't suggest impact fix for swingers. Not enough rythym in the takeaway. Thats why some form of dragaway is better imo

IMO it is important to take your grip in impact fix. Doing otherwise will effect the relationship between the sweetspot plane and shaft plane with its known problems (shank, and consistency). I think we all agree.

Depending on ball placement, adjusted address can look different. If you move the ball back as each club shortens, then your hands may look centered for each club. If you use one ball location and move your right foot farther apart for longer clubs, then your shaft will look forward leaning as the clubs get shorter and less as the clubs get longer.

The adjusted address position, as accomplished by keeping the leading edge square, moving the hands back and turning and bending the left wrist is the way I prefer. Already, my hands are positioned so that with a little extensor action, the wedges are re-established and the right forearm fans in the takeaway. I'm going to turn my hands anyway. Rhythm is started for the backswing. I mean that there is less of the feel that I’m placing the club on the backswing path and more of the feeling that I’m swinging the club.

Whether the leading edge is open or square at impact somewhat eludes me. I’ve been more successful with the leading edge more square than open. IMHO it’s because the hands are still moving forward and down through impact. The clubshaft, hands and clubhead are moving together as a unit. Hmm?.. I don’t know.

Mid-body hands is an efficient alignment for a number of reasons, and not a compensation. The core reason is that it allows you to get and stay on plane far simpler than beginning at impact fix, helps with the feel of the right forearm, and sets the hands in the proper relationship to the shoulder line and chest. Low point being under the ground is another key factor. Despite the illusion, it is anatomically, physically, and geometrically a proper procedure.

I think that you may have misunderstood my statement.

My comments regarding "compensation" were made regarding my assessment of those who adopt mid-body hands and keep the clubface at its impact fix alignment. They have to "manipulate" (turn) the wrist alignment to achieve this rather than allow clubface to take on an alignment at mid body hands which was more closed than impact fix ( which maintains wrist vertical).

This is the point that Brian Manzella's recent video tutorial illustrates very nicely and seems very natural for mid-body hands and swinging . But did Homer mention this ? Did he overlook it or consider it and think it unimportant?

If you adopt closed clubface at adjusted address and hit it straight is this a sign of a non-flippy motion ? Forward leaning shaft etc??

There is no precision in a grip unless you assume it in the impact condition with a clubface position to match a particular hinge action. Only then do you go back to midbody hands and the face shall be where the face shall be.....

If there is one main issue with TGM that drives me insane I believe it is this. Between Chuck, Yoda and Brian it seems they are each teaching a different way to grip and address the club. Brian teaches his "neutral" grip and a square face at address with mid-body hands. Chuck's has the hands at a "special" position and the face is slightly open (for a swinger). Now I'm seeing a mid-body hands and a closed face here. So which is it? Or is it another variation that the player can pick and choose which one works best?

For the record (Chuck), I go with the book. I’m not much familiar with other methods.

With a non-hand-manipulative swinger, centrifugal force will align the clubface for straight-away flight. Centrifugal force throws out the center of gravity of the secondary lever assembly; the sweetspot. Centrifugal force doesn’t know the difference between the clubface and your shoes. It only knows center of gravity. If you swing without having the center of gravity aligned (trailing and on-plane with the clubshaft during the downswing) then, unfortunately, centrifugal force will perform its magic trick without the bunny. And Bam! What ever part of the clubhead replaced the center of gravity during the downswing, will hit the ball. Normally, somewhere far away from the true sweetspot.

Take your grip in the impact fix location with the shaft leaning forward and with the left thumb and #3 pressure point on the aft side of the shaft (strong single action). Hint: (with your left thumb on the shaft at impact fix, it will seem to point toward the clubhead center of gravity). When your hands move back to standard address, turn your hands so that the clubface is square or slightly open. If you move your hands to adjusted address without turning your wrists, you have manipulated the clubface (TGM is about geometry, not positions). You will have to un-manipulate the clubface before the downswing because the normal amount of takeaway Turn and fanning will not align the clubhead center of gravity behind and on plane with the clubshaft for the downswing (at the top of the swing your clubface will be closed).

Non-hand-manipulation swinging means that at impact, centrifugal force will align the clubface. Before impact (and after), it’s just you.

Hint #2. The swing has 24 components, so learn these grips and alignments in Basic Motion, and then Acquired Motion so that most components are zeroed out or slowed down. Then you can see the effect of grip and alignment changes without an unknown other component interfering.

Thanks Daryl, though your post has me a bit confused. I must meditate on it. :)

I had a range session today that went pretty well, and I was experimenting with different set-ups. I took my left hand grip at low point and then put my right hand in there, moved the hands to the ball and went to mid-body hands -- the clubface was a bit closed. Very good results. Then tried the "modified" version where the hands are a bit more forward and the clubface appeared open (actually, I think it is square to the alternate line?) and had less good results. The problem is one I think you addressed in the last sentence. When trying to figure out what works best all the other things have to be working correctly or you'll never know for sure.

Next time I see ldeit it's something I'll make sure we go over. I've been working hard on the things he taught me and hope I'm getting it.

Let me simplify....

1) Take your hands to impact fix
2) Take your grip
3) Move your hands to a position where you can draw a straight plane line and don't worry about what the face looks like.

Do all 3 above and you'll be fine. The key is that a certain way you setup with your hands will "promote" a on-plane or off-plane takeaway. So setup with your hands that will keep you on plane where ever that is.