advantages/disadvantages of being a full roll hitter? EDITED
 

I'm a hitter (pretty sure) who uses a full roll (horizontal hinge), pretty sure my release is somewhere around the snap but might not be maximum delay but you can tell on video it is a very late release.

So can anyone tell me what the advantages/disadvantages are to this type of stroke? I'm kinda curious to see if you guys can tell me (without me telling you) my strong/weak points and if it correlates to this stroke

thanks

jim

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EDIT:

Please be aware that I was confused as to what i was doing before and have since realized i was a swinger just employing some hitter moves to learn how to be a better swinger. Here is a link to what i was talking about. However there is still some good information in this thread.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=713

smoothered pulls and hooks (starting from impact fix) OR push/push fades (starting from mid body)

depending on ball position as well (fixed = tends to pull, move = tends to push)

eh......sorta, not quite though.

Anyone else? besisdes Ed knows me from two other forums so he might have some insider knowledge so shoosh ;)

The disadvantage for me is loss of distance with longer clubs. I simply can't get the same lag and snap as with a Swing. Guess my Right Tricep just isn't up to it.

A tendency to hitting pulls and pull draws if "spinning out" or faulty, open, alignment issues are involved. :wink:

NOPE...you will notice that problem was an ALIGNMENT ISSUE and not a swing issue

So my "brain" was actually getting in the way :P

What a bunch of jokesters all of you are

---

However i will say that one of MY disadvantages of being a full roll hitter with a late release is a thinn shot from not un-cocking the left wrist.

Also i'm susceptable to fades when my ball position gets outta whack or into impact incorrectly and can't save it so instead of a small fade i get a big one. Not a slice but maybe 10 yard fade instead of 2-4 yard

Hitters use angled
 

Jim,
The hitter's #1 accumulator creates angled hinging. The pushing of the right arm overtakes the left and creates a no roll feel.
Are you loading for horizontal or angled?

Re: Hitters use angled
 

Are you implying that when you arrive at release point, you have to have done something different than usual preceding release, in order to Horizontally Hinge rather than Angle Hinge through Impact?

Yoda'sLuke...i couldn't tell you.

I use the stroke that manzella taught me and Yoda told him that it was a full roll hitting procedure.

So i'm going off that assumption..maybe im wrong :?:

Re: Hitters use angled
 

I would say yes...different than the "normal" angled hinging of hitting.

Manzella is a great guy and is smart as a whip. I spent a little time with him when he came to my facility. I'm sure he has you on the right track for what your swing or hit requires. You may have been loading for vertical. As a result he may have given you a horizontal feel, just to get angled. Brian would know much better than me, because he's seen you.

Horizontal hinging has such a different rythm, I'd never be able to apply it in a hit. I was originally taught to be the opposite of that before I met Yoda. I was taught to be a swinger with angled hinging. It had terrible consequences. I'm going to ask Yoda what your misses would be, although I have a really good idea.

Horizontal hinging and standard wrist action are both natural body moves...angled hinging and single wrist action are manipulated per 7-19-1....

Fooling Mother Nature
 

Horizontal Hinging -- the Vertical-to-the-Ground Motion of the Flat Left Wrist and its consequent Closing Only Motion of the Clubface -- is the natural consequence of Centrifugal Force. Swingers should remember this and not try to 'fight City Hall' unless absolutely necessary.

It is not just a matter of "Oh, I did Horizontal Hinging on that one, now I'll do Angled Hinging on this one." According to taped lecture of the late Homer Kelley, a golf club moving at 100 MPH generates 107 pounds of Centrifugal Pull during the Release Interval. And that Pull is doing everything it possibly can to align the Clubface -- indeed, the entire Primary Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) -- for Horizontal Hinging. Attempting to override Centrifugal Force and make the Club do one thing when it wants to do another, is the recipe for inconsistency -- if not disaster -- on the links.

The same is true of the simultaneous Close-and-Layback of Angled Hinging. This Vertical-to-the-Plane Motion of the Flat Left Wrist and Clubface is the natural consequence of the Drive-out of Muscular Thrust. Attempting to make the Clubface Close Only (Horizontal Hinging) when the Driving Thrust is making it Lay Back is also to thumb one's nose at the Laws of Force and Motion. You can get away with such arrogance some of the time, but sooner or later you will learn the hard way...

It's not nice to fool Mother Nature!

There may be compensations, or rather "counter actions" in a full roll hitting procedure, but they are indeed interesting ones.

It is a pattern in which physics and geometry counter each other - compliment each other - well. All based on the initial 'fighting' of the opening clubface, of physics. In an interesting 'twist' to the equation, you can get to nearly a 'reverse roll feel' and a Trevino like impact, but from the inside - given a fair amount of axis tilt.

"without rotation, it feels like an inside out cut shot" - Ben Doyle

Re: advantages/disadvantages of being a full roll hitter?
 

Jim,

I was doing exactly what you are doing. Trying to hit with a horizontal hinge. My misses were smothered pull-hooks. Since going to the no-roll / half-roll feel of angled hinging, I no longer hit that ugly shot.

Who knows LOL

I'm not really concerned about what procedure i use, i just know that what i do works and is consistent about 90% of the time.

Maybe i'm switting lol

Also i RARELY EVER hit a hook, EVER. My normal miss is a small fade or just a dead pull from either a bad pivot or a clubface issue.

I think if i ever hit a real hook i'd about poop myself LOL

Only thing i focus on is a bent right wrist, a flat left wrist, hitting the inside corner of the ball, and having good balance. If i do all of those ball goes DEAD STRAIGHT.

Jim,

If you hit the inside of the ball, you can't roll the Left Wrist fast enough to make the ball start left. That's why your Horizontal Hinge Hit works so well. While there is so much objection to Hor Hinging in a Hitting procedure because it's a manipulation, I consider a Hitting procedure to be a manipulation in and of itself, because it overrides CF - talk about messing with Mother Nature. In fact, ANY stroke other than a Pure Swing, uses manipulation.

Makes sense to MizunoJoe....only time i get into trouble is when i hit the back of the ball and am not "setting up" for the fade. Then i get a pull or pull hook

Hitting IS NOT manipulated, it's just different than a swing
 

I don't remember Homer calling hitting a manipulated stroke, given that pushing or pulling could propell the club.

I can't find where "manipulation" is defined in the book. The word is not in the index.

For those who are overly concerned about Hitting with a Horizontal Hinge, here are Homer's own words from 10-19-0.

"Hinge Action does NOT differentiate Hitting and Swinging. All are interchangeable wih reservations. Hitters using Horizontal Hinging must consciously resist the tendency of Right Arm Paddlewheel Action toward Angled Hinging. Swingingers using Angled Hinging must consciously resist the tendency of Centrifugal Force toward Horizontal Hinging. Both procedures require skill in Clubface manipulation per 7-2."

I, for one, am able to resist Angled Hinging in a Hitting Stroke, and have the skill to manipulate the Clubface.

hinge action
 

I LOVE THIS SITE...
Anyone can resist something that will happen naturally if they'd like to add an additional piece to the equation.

Luke, on the Martee cd you used the term “hitter with gyroscopic tendencies.” Certainly a mix match of components. Can you explain? I think that much of today’s golf instruction wrongly teaches just that- a hitter’s stroke with a big roll or horizontal hinge.

If an Angle Hinge Hitter wishes to draw the ball, he ALSO has to add another piece to the equation - exactly how far back in the stance to play the ball for a specific amount of draw. Or he can guess at exactly how much to close the blade and the stance to pull hook the ball back on target - that's TWO more pieces for the ole equation.

hooking
 

I prefer to nuke it down the middle. If I must turn it left, I can. Why would you want to hook it all of the time??

gyroscopic
 

I was referring mainly to the tendency to try to turn the body to generate force, instead of using muscular thrust (right arm only.)

YL wrote, "Why would you want to hook it all of the time??"

Where did I say or imply that?

A draw is simple enough if the clubface is closed in the grip, and the machine is adjusted to the right. The plane stays in tact compared to the body. The clubface remains square, if you will, to the target, but the body is aligned to the right. This would impart a hook spin, without changing the plane to body or grip to body.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THIS PROCEDURE IS:
These adjustments are made PRIOR to the swing as address alignments. This is not something to be done DURING impact as in horizontal hinging. It's always easier to make a provision in the address alignments than trying to fight the natural tendency of angled hinging during impact, under the heat of competition.

Precision is much easier if you have all day to check it (at address) instead of .0125 seconds to check it (at impact).

"A draw is simple enough if the clubface is closed in the grip, and the machine is adjusted to the right."

You can't draw the ball with a closed clubface, which can only contact the outside of the ball. You are describing a pull hook with respect to the adjusted machine. The "prior" aspect of this procedure does not insure it's "precision". I can Horizontally Hinge more precisely than "guesstimate" how much to close both the clubface and stance.

Sure you can...(infinite doubt inserted here)

If you had read the previous post, you would have seen that the clubface was square to the target, not closed to it. The clubface is closed to the grip but not to the target. Additionally, the club would have to be swung off plane to hit the outside quadrant of the ball with the machine aligned to the right. With this body line, the inside quadrant is the only part of the ball that could possibly be struck, for those of us that don't like plane shifts.

Nope - when you close the stance(adjusted machine), you now have a plane line which is cross line to the target line. You also have a new outside aft quadrant, which you are going to hit with the clubface which, although square to the target line, is closed with respect to the new plane line.

I don't like his thread because it leads those astray....

Put simply. the angled hinge affects the loading of the right arm where it is a position to HIT at the top due to the influence created by the manditory alignments of the flying wedges. It is always a left arm stroke remember (1-F). The hinge action controls the alignments - it is the right arms job to trace the plane line and let the hinge action (controlling acc no.3)to do its thang.....the left arm is always swinging (1F) and it is always a left arm stroke

Thats why its left hand clubface right hand clubhead....

You cannot be in a position to hit with a horizontal hinge -its just not happen' - You are in a position to drag though :)

Matthew wrote,

"You cannot be in a position to hit with a horizontal hinge -its just not happen'
"

Not according to Homer who said in 10-19-0 -

"HITTERS USING HORIZONTAL HINGING must consciously resist the tendency of Right Arm Paddlewheel Action toward Angled Hinging."

Why load for swinging if your going to hit ? Its just nonsensical...it may be possible in slooow motion but you will never be a consistant machine.... plus angled hinging is probably the easiest to hinge action to master.....

Horizontal Hinge Hitting is for a Hitter who wants to truly draw the ball by hitting the inside of the ball, rather than lining up closed to the target and pull hooking it. Or any Hitter who wants to avoid the fade tendency of Angled Hinging.

Read Homer's own words from 10-19-0 - "Hinge Action does NOT differentiate Hitting and Swinging." Those caps are Homer's not mine. Do you believe that he would have said that were it "nonsensical"?

The ball goes from point A to point B and if you want a draw then swinging is your best option.....

It may not differentiate but it sure does have more than a passing influence......ans im sure Homer didn't like it much either.... he was just stating tht it is possible only in an awkward way (ch 13 - non interchangable components).....

Gentlemen,

Just a clarification. You don't 'load' to hinge. You load to drag or drive the clubhead. Hinging in itself has its own identity and should be kept separated from Lag Loading. Granted, the Lag Loading procedure will generally influence the hinging used, but you can execute any Hinge Action with any Lag Loading procedure with the inherent pitfalls if not properly compensated.

Patrick

philly,

That's correct, but I knew what Matthew meant.

10-19-0
 

The next sentence in 10-19-0 states: "All are interchangeable-with reservations." He then warns hitters and swingers about the tendency to natrually revert back to angled and horizontal hinging, respectively. And says:

"Both procedures require skill in Clubface manipulation per 7-2."

So I read this to say, you can horizontal hinge AND hit, but it takes conscious clubface manipulation to do it successfully. The same applies to swingers using angled hinging.

Re: 10-19-0
 

I'm with you Trigolt.
The words that scream at me are 'maipulation' and 'with reservations.'
Homer used the word 'true' to describe 'true hitters' using angled hinging and ' true swingers' using horizontal hinging. Does that make a hitter using horizontal hinging a "false" hitter?
I just thought that I'd add a little TNT to the fire...
:twisted: