Jim Hardy comment , your thoughts?
 

Jim himself mentioned that he wished he had called it "Arms oriented" and "Body oriented" swings. He's a bit tired of the hair splitting about the two swing types...takes away from the intended points.

When I read the above, I became even more confused what he is trying to say ...

----

And basically I am also very curious about this. As a swinger with a Body Orientated swing like JH, he advocate that the right elbow is behind the hip at impact and that IS the KEY to accuracy and great impact. And he mentioned that Ben Hogan at his peak have his right elbow behind his hip at impact.( is that true?)

However here , tried and tested i learned a more natural way is bump left and let the arm/body lead the hip, flat left wrist and POW! . great and a more relaxed and natural movements. However , it feels like the right elbow is more in front of the hip or not neccesarry in front?

So .. Which is a more repeatable and prefered way? Any clarification is great. Hope to learn a little bit more

Thank you !

Sorry i sounded confused because I am !... or Should I?

I certainly agree that his book has an unfortunate title. It is a good discussion about the setup differences between a posture with the body more upright, vs a lot of forward bend from the hips.

These 'somewhat' map to the general trends of a hitter vs swinger - with more forward tilt from the hips making a hitter's motion more likely, and more upright a swingers (annika, stewart).

The elbow positions you talk of are punch vs pitch, with punch having an advantage in the accuracy department, and pitch more speed IMO.

If you use CF to power your motion, a pitch elbow can have an advantage, if you use muscular thrust (right triceps), a punch elbow can have an advantage.

Part of the point of his text was that what you do at setup defines what 'works best' during your motion, so as for which to use, it depends on your trends/setup/body/abilities.

Hogan right elbow
 

Hogan positioned his right elbow at the right "watch pocket",
the position that he set up with this waggle. Don't know if
this position is considered to be behin the hip or in front
of the hip. I keep reading Yodas forum topic on Hogans power
secret where Hogans right elbow moved forward. Per Homer
Kelley, the right elbow need to be inside the line of sight
to the ball before releasing.

The only beefs I have:

-the name (1P, 2P)....kinda misleading.....doesn't give you a good idea of what the plane really is.

-the "incompatibilites"....(some of) which really aren't incompatibilities.....for example- Hogan didn't have a strong grip, and is a "1P" guy according to Hardy's system.....and in Hardy's descriptions he has a "WARNING!" of this....

-the fact that if you go beyond the point where the left arm and shoulders line up you are no longer a "1P" guy (as I understand it)....even tho you've prolly just made a longer swing (and/or not as incredibly flat) and are now on the Turned Shoulder Plane as a result......still can be a Double Shift or Single Shift tho.....same motion essentially......doesn't at all make it similar to a "2P" swing.....as I see it.

-the horribly posed pictures in his GD article. (they look sooooo bad.....lol :))

Just take a look at Hogan on the front of his book the 5 Fundamental's...his right elbow is in front of his right hip...

DG

Delware,
Exactly, Hogan is a swinger.

So guys , a pitch elbow is somewhat in front and a Hit elbow somewhat behind the hips?

So why did he use Hogan as a One plane swing , while he advocates more of a Hitter motion in a One plane swing?

Thanks for clearing up this THICK FOG ...

Nope...the hitters right elbow does not get somewhat behind the right hip...read and study 10-3-A..."down-and-at-the-side" Elbow Position.

Mr. Hardy
 

.................................................. .....

Mr. Hardy thinks it is a big mistake to try to horse that right elbow up in front of the right hip. He does not really go into HITTING vs. SWINGING.

I talked to him briefly about this elbow subject one time. He said to look at a big "coffee table" book about Hogan. He said there is a picture in there that clearly shows where his elbow was. It was not in front. (It was more of a TGM "PUNCH" position.)

I believe he thinks that Mr. Hogan didn't really do what he felt like he did.

Now... we TGMers know that some very good players do have the elbow in front. Some ways of getting it there... are probably better than others. The elbow, however, does not have to be in front. Jim Furyk is an example of this.

Of course.

...all this talk about you being "stuck" if you do this is BS (BS!)....

Hell....if Hogan did it maybe we should ALL do it...

...

BTW...

What did he feel Hogan did vs. what he thought he did?

I spent quite a bit of time watching the Shells match and Hogan's right elbow is definitely behind his hip at impact. Hardy said that after the accident, I believe, is when Hogan kept the elbow back until after impact. He said this helped him avoid the hook. I don't know, makes a helluva lot of sense to me.

Matt

Line of sight to the ball
 

When I look at Yoda and Hogan swinging, the pictures look
like the right right elbow is in the line of sight to the
ball before release. When I look at pictures of Yoda Luke
hitting, the right elbow does not appear to get in the line
of sight before releasing. From what I read from Homer
Kelley, he does not limit line of sight, for the right elbow,
to either hitters or swinger. Don't get me wrong, I think
that Yoda Luke has on of the best swings of anybody. I guess
the question is: Do hitters, with the elbow behind the hip,
tend to get the right elbow in the line of sight late or not
at all?

look at my swing
 

This is taken from 2 weeks no swinging and a herniated disc ... got a bandaid wrap around my waist but.. thats my bad excuse for overswinging and not bumping to the left as much as i should.

my elbow is behind and I do feel much better results if i could get my right arms more underhand pitch motion in the downswing and elbow slightly in front of body . working on it, still on and off affair.

The thing is , I personally don't feel right behind the hip is correct

Hey NUKE it's tinkers from the other forum--- Are you still working with the OPS???

Hey Tinkers :)

Yes , I am swinging with arms and shoulder in one plane. I don't think i will change that ever because its my preferred way. I'm still swinging based on that basic concept.

I'm am however very into TGM because it can be applied Universally, on ANY type of swing. And it definitely helps me to appreciate the concept of a swing much better. And Everyone here is so knowledgeble.

for example.

concept of zero manipulation in OPS = zero swivel and semi roll.
concept of left armpit connected to shoulder = # PP4
concept of working the ball = horizontal/vertical hinge/roll


How bout u.. what are u working on?

Nuke....

This is coming from someone who is fairly new to TGM (18 months) so take it with that in mind. I think you need to get better extensor action. The lack of extensor action requires some adjustment to get back to the ball. After acquiring better extensor action your opinion of where the right elbow goes might (or given my vast experience teaching...might not) change.... just a thought.

Indeed, the Swinger's Pitch Basic Stroke (10-3-B) is conducive to greater Trigger Delay than the Hitter's Punch Basic Stroke (10-3-A).

Tongzilla
 

Your thoughts/comments to posts are certainly apprecited.
Thanks for your help. Donn

Accumulators Release
 

Hello again Tonzilla. I reviewed 10-3-A&B. One would think
that a hitter with the right elbow "down-and-at-side" would
be less prone to get the elbow in the line of site to the
ball before release. But 6-B-1-C, relating to Accumulator #1
the hitters Muscle Power Accumulator, says for Maximum trigger
delay "is gained by causing the right elbow to pass the ball-
which is the line-of-sight-to-the-ball before release".

Then in 6-M-1, "For maximum Power, the position must be taken
that will allow delay of the Release until all Components,
except the Right Foot and the Right Shoulder, have reached,
or passed the Line-of-sight-to-the ball per 6-B-1-C. Then
the Accumulators must move very rapidly toward their
In-Line Position".

Seems like, Swinging or Hitting, the release is inside line-of-sight-to-the ball.

psheehan,

Lack of extensor action was the first thing I noticed as well, and as Homer said you should fix the first wobbly point in the motion. However overall it's a pretty good swing. I can see the work you've put in Nuke99. Good Stuff.

Sorting through the Duffer's Bible.

B-Ray

Can you explain more clearly what you mean by this?

Line of sight to the ball
 

on 6/05/06 12 piece bucket responded: Remember... it is
the line of sight to the ball...not actually PAST THE BALL.
That will get into a "perverted Pitch elbow...equating to
Plane and erratic ball flights. Annikan has a great one for
this..Get your Right Forearm Flying Wedge VISUALLY past the
ball from the golfer's perspective". Remember your eyes are
behind the ball... so what looks like past ball ain't past.
Don't overcook it. I did and have suffered as a result.

When I read 6-B-1-C and 6-M-1, I preceive that all the
accumulators should be in the-line-of-site-to-the-ball
before they move toward their In-Line Position.
Homer Kelly did not differentiate between Hitters and Swinger
in this regard. From looking at pictures of Yoda Luke, the right arm started to its in-line postition before getting in the line-of-sight to-the ball. For Yoda and Hogan, the right are waited to line-of-sight before going to the In-Line position. I just wondered how come? Was it Hitter vs Swinger? I have seen Yoda Luke strike the ball and he is one of the very best. I know that he has reasons for what he does.

The reason why Swingers can lead their right elbow to greater Trigger Delay is because of the Turned Condition of the left wrist (Standard Wrist Action) just before Release.

Thank you very much tongzilla for helping me to work
through the confusion of the right elbow to hip. I have
been working very hard to increase power. In Yodas -
Ben Hogan power Secret, Yoda explained that Hogans right
foot push produced the extra Power by enabling him to get
his right elbow further past the ball during release.
10-3-A Punch says "Trigger Delay (7-20) of the right elbow
can be augmented only through Hip Slide or Hip turn per
10-14". I was under the misconception that the right elbow
moved off the hip and more toward the stomach. I certainly
hope that Ted Forte will my accept my apology for suggesting
that he did not get the right elbow into the line-of-sight
before going into an in line condition. There certainly
is value in your observation of the Turned condition of the
left wrist just before release. If you have any other thoughts
of feel that I still have a miss conception, please let me
know. Thanks again, Donn.