Shoulder Drive?
 

Is the shoulder driven and/or thrusted on it's own plane before the right arm is extended to maximize the lag and application the pressure points? I have been working PP #1 and #3 but am asking if my right shouler leads the way?
Am I on track? This is my first post as I have been taking it all in. This is a grreat website and forum! Congratulations!

Re: Shoulder Drive?
 

Of the two shoulders the right shoulder is the only one on plane. The right shoulder will be on plane-the downswing plane- when it moves Down, Out and Through into impact.
The right shoulder acts in two different ways depending on the stroke- always on plane. A Swinger will use the right shoulder as a gyroscope, a spinning wheel, to drive the clubhead into impact with centrifugal force. A Hitter uses the right shoulder as a platform to push off- to drive the right arm and hands into impact. Both on plane - down, out and through.
One important point: The right arm does NOT extend fully until AFTER impact.


welcome aboard. 6b

If one is performing a 3 barrel hitting procedure, is the right shoulder only moving down the turned shoulder plane instead of driving down this plane even if only momentarily? :?:

Motion not Action
 

John,

In three barrel Hitting the Right Shoulder has a Motion not an Action. The Right Shoulder is passive. It acts as the launching pad for the Thrusting Right arm. ANY action would constitute four barrel Hitting.

Forever Hitting,
Hunter

Right Shoulder Participation In The Hitter's Downstroke
 

Welcome aboard, Tystick. And congratulations on your first post. Keep'em comin'!

In answer to your question, here is a reprint from a prior post. Enjoy!

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For both Hitters and Swingers, the Pivot Loads the #3 Lag Pressure Point during the Start Down. This insures that the Body will lead the Power Package into the Downstroke and offers assurance that it will continue to do so into the Finish.

For Hitters, the Loading is maintained on the Aft side of the Shaft. Since the Right Forearm supports this Loading Action, this procedure simultaneously Loads the Bent Right Arm. Led by the Hip Slide parallel to the chosen Delivery Line, the Downstroke Right Shoulder Turn takes up the initial Clubhead inertia -- the disinclination of the Sweet Spot to follow.

But...the Shoulder Turn is slow; it reaches its top speed very quickly; and its ability to continue the Downstroke Acceleration soon pales in comparison to that of the now Loaded Right Triceps. Accordingly, the Right Shoulder early in the Downstroke ceases to apply Thrust. Instead, its Action (actively doing work) becomes merely Motion (permitting, but not causing, other events to occur).

It thus becomes the Launching Pad -- the 'recoil' platform -- for the Driving Right Arm.

Re: Right Shoulder Participation In The Hitter's Downstroke
 

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!! As Yoda described, you can't imagine the amount of force that is available.
This is the four barrell hitter in a nutshell. Imagine jumping off the hood of a car sitting in a driveway. Then, imagine how much faster you'd fly through the air if the car reached 30 MPH prior to you jumping of the hood. The shoulder (the car) is the first stage rocket, and the bend in the right elbow (legs) is the second stage rocket.

Another analogy could be a steel spring. If this spring was compressed from both sides while laying horizontally on a table, then released from both sides, it would expand to it's original size with energy traveling in both directions. Now, compress the spring in a vertical manner, against the table, and release it. The spring takes off vertically, because it has something to push against. Finally, if the table took off like a rocket, and the spring was compressed and released, the forces would accumulate.

Re: Motion not Action
 

Thanks Hunter! I guess since I have been thrusting the right shoulder downplane before the right arm starts to straighten, I was attempting 4 barrel hitting. I was using the initial shoulder thrust as a fisrt stage rocket from which to fire the #1 accumulator. Should this be reserved for the driver only on wide open holes?

Lukes post above is SENSATIONAL! I now know what the right shoulder does during the hitter's four barrel downswing. It continues to drive aggressively adding extra force. I am also pretty sure that in the three barrel hit it simply starts the motion then is a passive recoil pad for the thrusting right arm. Please let me know if i am wrong. I also assume that the four barrel procedure is a bit harder to master?


John

right shoulder
 

The right shoulder does a flameout, so the right arm can drive from that platform that began the motion.

Hall of Fame post Luke.

Just as the left side has a 'lag sequence' so the right has a 'launching pad' sequence.

Get them both right, and you've got 4 barrel

Re: Right Shoulder Participation In The Hitter's Downstroke
 

Ted - this is a really great description! It also confirms that I am indeed hitting, even though I know I'm moving my right shoulder down the plane line.

My most powerful shots come when I move the right shoulder and delay driving the right arm until the last possible moment.

If one is using a three accumulator stroke while hitting does the right arm start its thrust from the top since the right shoulder is providing motion and not action? I assume that when using a four accumulator stroke the right shoulder thrusts downplane as a first stage rocket, and after the shoulder picks up the momentum then the right arm can straighten down the angle of approach?

Right arm from top
 

I was listening to an audio of Homer today. He said the right arm can start straight from the top.
In four barrel hitting, the right shoulder does begin the startdown. Once any slack is removed and the momentum toward the ball has begun, the right shoulder still becomes a platform from which the right arm is thrusting. The maximum speed of the right shoulder is achieved very quickly and loads the #4 pressure point, but only for a fraction of a second. The right arm can begin thrusting at any pre-selected point in the downstroke to begin the simultaneous release of #1, #2, and #3.

Re: Right arm from top
 

Thanks Ted!

Musical Chairs
 

The Hips pull the Shoulder down. Back in your seats, everyone!

Yoda,

Thanks for lifting the fog....I can see clearly now!!! It's funny how 2-M-4 mentions clearing the fog....is there some connection? :)

DG

Re: Changing Gears...
 

If we're sticking strictly to the book, I'd like to know where the flattening of the right wrist is found.

To this point...You're right that the body leads and that the startdowns are exactly the same for 4 barrel hitting and swinging. But, I think that understanding the use of the right shoulder is very important to differentiate one from the other. My mentioning the right shoulder was firstly to identify the loading of the #4 accumulator, and secondly to make it clear that the shoulder doesn't continue downplane for hitting. It becomes a platform. My intent was to prevent anyone from feeling the shoulder continues toward the ball when attempting 4 barrels.

Ted,

Please watch the Tomasello Chapter on "Power".....Tom will say with out question...."get the bent right wrist in there"....meaning at impact.

Thanks for your input on the startdown for 4 barrel hitters.

Now back to regularly scheduled programming....:)

DG

a little fog...
 

If the swingers pivot thrust can manifest itself as the feeling of a pull through the left hand, and hitters (at least 4-barrell hitters) use pivot thrust to initiate the downswing, would they (hitters) feel a left hand pull before driving the right through impact?

3 and 4 Barrel Hitters
 

What seperates a four barrel hitter from a 3 barrel hitter is pivot thrust. Pivot thrust/Momemtum Transfer becomes a factor as a power source for the 4 Barrel hitter. With the 3 barrel hitter, the power source comes from the action of the right arm (The Magic of the Right Forearm....study 7-3).

So, startdown for the 3 barrel hitter is with the right arm (the muscles of the right forearm per 10-20-B). The startdown for the 4 barrel hitter is with the lower body (hip slide per 2-N-1-B, study 2-M-3 and 2-M-4).

3 Barrel Hitter = Power Package Thrust
4 Barrel Hitter = Pivot Thrust and Power Package Thrust

DG

So if I'm trying to 4-barrell hit, or if I'm swinging, is a left hand pull the wrong feeling for initiating the swing?

Feel vs Action
 

First with have to seperate feeling from action.....

Are you pulling with your left wrist? Action!!!


Feeling would be.....as I start the downstroke with a hip slide per 2-N-1, I FEEL a pulling action on my left wrist?


Are you with me so far?

The initial action for the 4 barrel hitter is an action with the hips (much like a 3 barrel swinger)....transfer of momentum...moving the power package down to a release point (Automatic Random Sweep or an Automatic Snap). Then you apply right arm thrust per 10-20-B....study 2-M-4.

Before moving on to a 4 Barrel Hit....I would learn a one barrel hitting action and a three barrel hit before moving on to a high performance 4 Barrel Hitting stroke. Go to section 12-5-1, -2 and build your hitting stroke from there...it would be great if you could do that with an authorized instructor.

With the golfing machine approach everything should be done incrementally....

DG

Re: Feel vs Action
 

I'm definitely talking about feels here. After 4 years of ineptitude, I discovered that I'm a better off as a feel player; the right things often happen easier for me that way (hip slide, etc). I ask about the 4-barrel hit because I'm trying to see if I've been switting or, indeed, 4-barrel hitting. The only thing I know for sure is that both hands/sides have to be very involved (especially with my driver), and I don't what I'm doing wrong, or even if I'm doing anything wrong.

Re: 3 and 4 Barrel Hitters
 

dg,
do you think going 3-to-4-barrel would let one hit it farther?

-hcw

Re: 3 and 4 Barrel Hitters
 

HCW,

The whole idea behind going from a 3 to a 4 barrel stroke is to increase power (distance). But it also appears trajectory is a factor too. Just take a look at Tomasello's three barrel hit with a 5 wood it produces a low slider....on the otherhand, with the 4 barrel hit which creates more force on the ball equals greater lift equals a higher shot. Being able to execute a 3 barrel or a 4 barrel hit would be the ideal approach for a hitter in my book....it would give you more options in controling distance and dealing with different course conditions.

DG

Re: 3 and 4 Barrel Hitters
 

cool...this was all i was trying to say (albeit not using these term and therefore not very clearly, sorry) last month in the "Physics" thread in "The Lab"...let me add my thanks to the TT tapes, very informative and entertaining!

-hcw