'True' Hitting With Angled Hinging
 

This thread is for anyone that would like to stay on topic in 12-1. You can take it to the bank that I choose to live by 12-1 and 12-2 when beginning someone on the path to success. After successful mastery, variations are an option 'with reservations.'

Can one hit successfully and use horizontal hinging?

Channelback

It depends on the use of the word successfully. I believe that it can be done, but optimizing a person's potential is the goal. Can one be better using the proper hinge action? Maybe, maybe not...
Angled is what's desired.

Luke:

Here is where you can really help me lift a little fog. If angled hinge is the preferred hinge for hitting, then what are the necessary adjustments one must make to compensate for the fade tendancy? Is it body alignment or is it clubface or is it ball position? If I take a square stance and use a hitting stroke with angled hinge, the ball should start at the target then fall right OR start right of the target and fall right?

At the moment, this is big for me. Thanks for your input.

Terry

Terry,
The clubface in angled hinging is closing and laying back simultaneously. Homer used the word fade in his book, and we have to assume that he meant a "controlled" slice (my words). It's funny to those of us in the pro business; because, we were instructed for many years that there was no such thing as a fade or draw. The ball either hooks or slices, and does so to different degrees. There's no quantitative measure to say whether a ball faded or sliced, and my measure may be different than anyone else. So, I'm off my soapbox; but, I had to add that little sidebar. I always laugh when I hear someone speaking of a "true draw" or "true fade."

I find such little movement in my own application, that it's almost not worth discussing. In my best sub par rounds, I do feel like the ball is fading slightly. Because of previous instruction, I had a hook that wouldn't stop. So, anything that keeps from turning left is perfect to me (Hogan and I are similar in at least one respect). As far as alignment goes, it's obvious that you wouldn't want to align yourself to the target if you know that it's going to fade (unless death awaits you left of the target). I would say that my alignment does favor a left alignment.

Now, in order to turn the ball to a greater extent (hooks and slices), I do place the club open or shut in my 10-2-B grip and adjust the alignment to the right or left of the target. Those are the unusual times that hitting it straight is not an option.

Turned Shoulder Plane?
 

Hit Doctor,

I assume you use the Turned Shoulder Plane?

Where are you hands at Top if we were looking from a down the line view?
In-Line with the Right Shoulder? Between the Shoulder and Ear?

Reason I ask . . .

I did some video and my plane was steep IMO. My swing was still relatively short, but my hands were high. More towards the ear than shoulder. I think I have over-cooked the pick-up.

Can you perform an effective Hitting procedure with high hands? My gut tells me no.

Thanks!

BucketFried

Re: Turned Shoulder Plane?
 

I do use turned shoulder plane. My hands stop at top, in front of my right sholder. As far as plane shifts go, hitting and swinging become more complicated as the plane shifts. I'd rather teach you to hit with no shifting.

YodasLuke:

The reason I asked about hitting successfully with horizontal hinging is that I am having a heck of a time performing angled hinging. I guess it's because I taught myself to "release" by rolling my right arm over the left. Of course, because of the weather here I havn't been able to hit real balls anyway. :( Is angled hinging a result of little or no clockwise rotation of the lead arm on the backswing?

Thanks
Channelback

hinge action
 

Angled hinging is the result of the pushing force. It is prepared in the backswing. The overtaking, or right forearm passing your line of sight creates the action to follow-through.

Hi, YodasLuke:

1) From impact fix, push the handle back on plane with PP 1(right arm pickup; limp left arm) to the top (shoulder high) without rotating arms;

2) Push back down with PP 1 (slowly) on same plane and accelerate through line-of-sight. To China.

Do I have it right?

Thanks

Channelback

hitiing with angled
 

Almost...one little word change...
You PULL the right arm back with right forearm pickup. Everything else, I like.

Re: hitiing with angled
 

I may have missed something or am not understanding/using the correct term

I thought, be it swinger or hitter, there is arm rotation in the backstroke. The difference being the hitter does it gradually to the top and the swinger does it quickly (probably before hip high hands).

So based on what I said, what did I missunderstand or am I just usnig the wrong terms?

Martee:

Brian Manzella talks about this in one of his videos. In hitting, Brian talks about resisting the turning of the forearm on the backswing by trying to keep it perpendicular to the plane. But his pivot makes it look like the forearm has rotated. In swinging there is a 1/4 turn of the forearm so the left hand faces the plane on the backswing.

I probably butchered it but thats what I remember.

Terry

I heard BM position. Yoda had me turning my right hand so it was palm up to the plane. For both hitting and swinging, maybe the hand turn is not the same as the arm turn and that is were my confusion lies. Then again maybe not. I maybe just confusing myself between wrist action and arm, though it seems the forearm does turn.

Re: hitiing with angled
 

That sounds like the explanation Yoda gave me in another thread when I asked about the movement in the Makeover video.

I wonder if channelback is referring to his "left wrist action" feel when commenting on his non rotating arms. When swinging the standard action 10-18-A is used, which involves cocking AND turning where as hitting is only cocking via 10-18-C Single. The 10-18-A swingers action then swivels into impact, the hitters option doesn't. I think the turning part on the backstroke might be what channelback aludes to in his arms comment. Actually i'm pretty sure he is regarding the turn of the left wrist in swinging as "clockwise rotation of the lead arm on the backswing" which is taken from one of his early posts. I'm pretty sure i've seen Leadbetter and Faldo talk many times about left forearm rotation, and their meaning in TGM is simply the left wrist turn. I am also sure as already stated in here by Martee that Yoda said the hitters rotation is gradual and the swingers early. I don't actually think the hitter consciously tries to rotate where the swinger does. Hope i haven't added more fog or got it wrong, posting this made me incubate a bit more by having to refer to my book :)

Left wrist
 

Terry, who knows, you may have indeed "butchered it", but I actually think that your comments above are commonly seen floating around TGM circles.

For those that are interested or trying to "get there"- a couple of thoughts:
1) Nothing in the Golfing Machine describes anything actually turning a 1/4 of a turn
2) If there is somewhere in the book where he describes "the left wrist facing the plane"- then can someone find it in the book, post it, and let's discuss it.
By the way, I think both of the above have the same thing in common- those searching for simplicity- and something specific, in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or stated differently, trying to make a principle where one doesn't exist.

On a completely different note:
My recommendation is to study and learn the book as well as possible- during that process you'll certainly feel that "this is it" and "nobody else knows what their talking about", but ultimately the "Golfing Machine" won't be something different or better than your golf movement or better than someone elses golf movement. It won't be an accumulator or a lever assembly, it will just be your golf movement which you will have a better understanding of fixing or keeping on track if you need to make an adjustment. I think that's what Homer had in mind, besides categorizing and describing the golf movement in Geometrical and Physics terms and then having the player translate that precision into feel- he wanted to have a coherent explanation of any and all swings- that includes the one you're making today- so the Golfing Machine really describes what you're doing today and also how to make it better. For myself I always like to keep it in those terms- otherwise, sometimes I feel like "an octopus or a thing from outer space"- if I am trying to "literally" apply a "Golf Machine" concept - inappropriately. It can be a great book - for "overcooking" your application. But you can't skip that phase of the understanding process either- cause then you would just gloss over it and not really dig it out. OK, now I'm incoherently rambling........- and I'm about ready to hit the delete button because who really wants to hear this- be I'll let it stand.
Mike O.

Here's a great post by galopin from another forum

It goes back to what Yoda often says, that the hands tend to go down to Impact the same way that they go up to the Top. In the backstroke, a Hitter slowly swivels from the takeaway to the Top; he goes back down the same way--a long, slow swivel from the Top to Impact. In contrast, a Swinger completes his backstroke swivel early in the backstroke, and in the downstoke, he quickly swivels from Release Point to Impact.

Shoulder vs. Hands
 

I'm not really qualified to speak on this (or any other) aspect of TGM, but this was an area that gave me a lot of trouble so I'll risk trying to put my feelings into words in the hope that it might help clarify some of the previous replies.

Let's suppose that you're going into the grocery store and you come face to face with Osama bin Laden. Your first thought is to give him a karate chop to his neck, so you pull your left arm back and, keeping your palm facing down to the ground, whack him as hard as you can with the edge of your palm.

Your second thought is that it's a little strange for Osama to be shopping at the same grocery store, so it might be wise not to kill this guy, maybe it'd be safer just to knock him out. So you decide to whack him upside the head with the back of your hand. You pull your left arm back, putting your hand in the same palm-down position, but lower your shoulder slightly so your arm will rotate 90 degrees before you hit him.

The difference is more in the orientation of your shoulder than in the initial position of your hand. To relate this to the question about Hitting vs. Swinging, the hands would be in the same position at the Top (if the Swinger stopped there) but the left shoulder would be oriented differently depending on the desired Hinge Action. At least that's the way it feels to me. :?:

Can't speak to the 1/4 turn, heard it, but don't know where it comes from...

As for the left wrist facing the plane (hopefully we are talking about the same thing) I submit 10-18 (swinging 10-18-A, hitting 10-18-C-2) as to the turn/roll that I was referring too in the backstroke.

What do ya think?

Left wrist facing the plane
 

Martee,
I can't really explain the concept of the left wrist facing the plane- as it is not one that I use or originated. Nor did Homer use it in the book. Are we talking about the left wrist/palm exactly parallel to the plane?, or just a general term of generally facing the plane? Of course, that would apply with hitting also- the left wrist facing the plane. Does the hitter or swinger have their left wrist/palm facing earlier or later than the other? Depends on the player and his pattern. Generally speaking during the takeaway for a swinger who is setting up momentum in the club by dragging the club back- you're not going to have much rotation of the forearm at that point, until the hands slow down and the momentum of the club continues- and rotates the left wrist. The hitter would generally have rotation from the very beginning, created by the body/arm motion- not an independent or conscious rotation of the forearms. Likewise, the swinger doesn't conscious rotate his forearms but that occurs as a result of centrifugal force, anotherwords your loading actions and acceleration methods determine your wrist actions in the ideal situation, for both hitters and swingers. That's just part of understanding the individual components of the Golfing Machine and their role in relation to the broader concepts in the Golfing Machine.
Mike O.

Re: Left wrist facing the plane
 

Note I don't believe I advocated the rotation of the forearm, but of the wrist(which will if done will eventually effect the forearm).

What you wrote is exact the opposite that I was taught.

The uncocking of the left wrist should be a perpendicular motion (2-P) and when on inclined plane to maintain the clubshaft to remain on the plane face (2-F) that would require the palm to be facing the inclined plane as I understand it.

Given the 10-18 references (matches 12-1/-2 stroke patterns), I believe it is more than fair to say there is a turn both for the swinger and hitter.

Given the above two paragraphs, I would say Homer did use it in his book. Both a hitter and swinger are at the top with the left palm down and the right palm up.

I need to reseach out more why a swinger is completed so early but the hitter is gradual, like the body/pivot motion. The swinger in the downstroke uncocks and then rolls into impact (swivels). If the actions of the downstroke is opposite that of the backstroke (7-18 ), then for the swinger it would be a 'start up swivel' which would or should be completed before the hitter who is letting the it be as the pivot motion goes.

Re: hitiing with angled
 

You're very correct that the arm does rotate in both. Deliberately in hitting, finally with clubface getting to plane at top. In swinging, the sweetspot lays an the plane much sooner.

AH!... Grab sunglasses immediately, blinding light...

'Sweetspot lays on Plane.... If there were no rotation, then it would be the hosel that laid on the Plane.....

Okay, I believe that is right.

Now, The steeper the Plane Angle, the less the turn is? If the plane Angle was vertical, no turn.?.

The flatter the Plane Angle, then the more the turn.

This is really wrist/hand rotation and the arms are along for the ride so to speak. Maybe if I am tracking correctly the use of arm rotation is not the best, but maybe wrist rotation is more accurate?

In Brian's video he was simply trying to show the difference in the forearm rotation in swinging/hitting. By showing the left arm rotates open towards the plane, cocks up the plane, comes down the plane, hits the inside back corner of the ball, rotates to the plane again, and then up the plane.

There he goes again....that Itallian guy not reading out of the book....

Re: Shoulder vs. Hands
 

I think the reward for Osama is for dead or alive. I'd shoot him, myself.

Hi Mike O. 6-B-3-0-1 says "the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft,
and the BACK OF THE LEFT HAND are always positioned against
the same flat plane."

Another item in the discussion about Layback and closing.
This sounds a lot like pronation instead of Supinating. I realize
that Ben Hogan was most likely swinging rather than hitting but
he said "When a golfer's left wrist begins to pronate just before
impact, it changes his arc: it shortens it drastically and makes
the pitch of his upswing altogether too steep and constricted.
At the very point in the swing in which he should increasing
the speed of his hands, by pronating he slows them down.
Instead of accelarating and picking up speed at impact, he has
expanded all his speed before he hits the ball"

Guess that I will be eaten alive for suggesting that layback/closing
appears to be pronation, but I can be corrected.

Donn Kerby

Pronation/Supination
 

See this link- and type in pronation or you can type in supination
http://medical-dictionary.com/dictionaryresults.php

Donn,
I wouldn't mind discussing this with you, but we will need to work through the terminology and get to your exact question. Pronation/Supination are medical terms for movement of the forearm - that movement doesn't change the wrist condition. That said , it's important to note that in Ben Hogan's paper back book "Five Lessons The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" on page 102 and 103- Hogan used those terms inappropriately in regards to the wrist- arching and bending the wrist would be the general non-medical explanation of those wrist conditions in Hogan's book, NOT pronation and supination. The terms he uses in his book are practically embarrassing- in their lack of regard for the proper medical term.
Mike O.

Edit update: Donn, you are correct that bending the left wrist causes the clubface to close and lay back. But keep in mind, that hinging, specifically angled hinging(closing with layback) is performed with a flat left wrist. So bending the left wrist, producing closing and layback is not the same as a hinging motion.

Back to the medical terms- Homer used the turning and rolling terms because he could apply them at the same time to both forearms. As opposed to pronation and supination- where the left forearm say is supinating while the right forearm does the opposite move of pronation. I believe that you're referring to the lead left forearm, in which case the forearm motion of supination would tend to be a closing only move, while pronation would be a no closing or reverse roll move. But I'm just rambling incoherently now- if you want to repost and clarify, we could continue- otherwise I'll consider the case closed.
Thanks,
Mike

Re: Pronation/Supination
 

I agree Mike...

TGM Basic
 

Yoda put up a video clip of yours truly in TGM Basic, where you can see angled hinging in action as found in 12-1.

Thanks Mike O for your explanation of Pronation & Supination.
Your explanation certainly adds knowledge to my thinking.

On another forum you explained the procedure for 7-2. What
a great work. I was struggling with how to rotate the grip for
a hitter. You did just a tremendous job of explaining it. Not
to take up to much of your time, but setting the clubface a little
closed to the target line for hitting, do you do this before gripping
the club and just not move the ball ball back in the stance like you
would do for a hook.
Thanks again, Donn

Ted, Just looked at your swing in the movie section. I loved the comments section and your swing is really great. The last two
frams looked just like Hogan in the video of him at the Masters.
He was using a 9 Iron in one section but the left arm and his backpositions looked just like yours. Makes me believe that at times he was a hitter.
Thanks, Donn Kerby

Hoganlike...
 

I appreciate it. I've worked very hard to gain my impact alignments. I can't wait to hear the commentary on the front view...

Donn,
Yes, you would do it before gripping the club, with the shaft in the impact fix alignment, not the address alignment.

That said for basic practical purposes- you wouldn't close it while hitting unless you were fading the ball and didn't want that ball flight. Of course, hitting does have that fade tendency so if closing the blade at impact fix provides for a straight ball for you - and that's what you want, then great!

The only thing I wasn't quite clear on, in regards to your post was your comment "just not move the ball back in the stance like you would do for a hook"- you might want to clarfiy what you meant by that or just let it go if it's not that important.

Mike O.

Limp Left arm
 

YodasLuke, Is the limp left arm from takeaway to top so as to help
extensor action. Yoda repeats on his video while hitting, "right arm on plane, extend, extend". 6-B-1-D talks about the the full extension of
the left arm at all times. Yoda talks about stretching the left arm and
taking the slack out of the left side at the top. Your Video does not look
like a limp left arm. What am I missing.
Thanks Donn

Re: Limp Left arm
 

The only reason that my left arm looks so extended is that my right arm is trying to rip the left from its socket. In 12-3 you'll find Homer driving the point home...extensor action, extensor action, extensor action, extensor action, extensor action.

Extensor action creates the spoke for the wheel, or radius for the circle on the face of an inclined plane. It removes any neccessity for downward bobbing. It aids in the ability to keep the left wrist from arching or bending (clubface controll). It gives the machine a rigid structure that leads to repeatability (consistency). I know these things don't seem very important... RIGHT!!!??? :)

Re: Limp Left Arm
 

Ted, Thanks for the info. I guess the "Limp Left Arm" was a play on
words. Glad that you emphasized the extensor action. Somewhere
in the downswing or at the top the left arm would have to become
rigid to give the primary lever some structure. Can't push against a
limp rope or limp left arm. As Hogan said "one arm of the two always has to be straight to maintain the radius" I find your observation that
extensor action aids to keep the left wrist from arching to be very
informative. I will hit 500 ball today with the hitting thought.
Thanks again, Donn.

My problem has always been a limp left arm on takeaway. Im not sure if it was Yodasluke, and Im paraphrasing, but a tip I got was at impact fix PP1 would apply pressure to the left thumb and extend the left arm to the top, this is what I assumed was extensior action with the left arm basically straight and the top at shoulder height, hip bump and PP1 applying pressure going down and out. Is this right?

That's right. Keep it up!