Mac O'Grady and TGM
 

Thanks Yoda for the welcome note after my first post. I've been reading your posts here since inception and before that your writings on Brian's and Chuck's sites. Time to jump in and join the fun.

I wanted to share with the TGM crowd some of Mac O'Grady's swing principles. I spent 3 full days with Mac in Orlando in January with my local AI Ted Britschgi (also a great teacher). He said his whole swing philosophy changed when he discovered Homer's book. To him, Homer was THE MAN.

My own background is that I've been playing 40 years, currently to a 3 hcp. I became a follower of Todd Graves and Natural Golf for a few years and though it helped my game significantly I was drawn to the science of TGM about a year ago and have since become a convert.

I would welcome comments and comparisons of Mac's ideas with TGM. He feels that the ideal swing is about 75% Snead and 25% Hogan. Because Mac's work is so detailed, I can only give a glimpse in this post, but here goes with some selected points:

1. Set up: : Buttend of club points at the navel. Very little backward spine tilt (i.e., away from the target). Mac emphasizes maintaining a Center of Gravity (COG). Both feet slightly flared outwards. Since I'm 54, he also pulled my right foot back on ALL shots. He also discourages the chin up position -- says the eyes must look directly at the ball (his teachings stress the importance of the eyes). Grip: ideally LH is turned 45 degrees.

2. Backswing: The hands go back, in and up, right along the plane line. For me, it became a feeling of the hands going inside, but the clubhead went much less inside. When the lead arm is parallel to the ground it would point about 45 degrees to the right of the target (for a right hander). At the top of the BS, the left wrist should be flat with a definite feeling of the extensor action on PP#1 (I tend to double-cock, which I've learned destroys the flying wedge). One real big point: you must maintain the COG at the time -- no effort to get everything behind the ball. For me the feeling is that the left hip does not move away from the target on the BS, but DOES move laterally on the DS. He pointed to both Hogan and Snead and factitously laughed about how they would "reverse pivot" (they are Mac's heros).

3. Downswing: At the beginning of the DS, EVERYTHING moves towards the target, even the head. I expect this may distinguish his move from TGM. However, the head backs up slightly just before impact, so it doesn't get ahead of the ball. He advocates a straight line delivery path. The left shoulder stays down rather than going up on the downswing because Mac believes if it goes up you'll get jammed and also dump off the lag. We spent lots of time working on developing lag but his key points for lag: The deltoids bring the club down the first part of the DS and the triceps don't fire until just before the release point. The trail elbow must keep moving forward ("seeking the navel") while the right wrist remains bent. And the clincher is exactly what I think (if I understood correctly) Yoda said was Hogan's key -- you sustain the lag by the momentum transfer forward; for some, a push off the trail foot. The minute you slow down that transfer the clubhead will overtake the hands. On the follow-through, Mac had me getting my trail shoulder to a point forward and behind position of the left shoulder at address. He definitely stresses rotational forces.

I hope I've been faithful to Mac's teachings in my descriptions, incomplete as they must be, and I hope he wouldn't mind my posting about what he teaches. He is an extremely intense, enthusiatic teacher. Quite a story-teller too, but a very private individual. No doubt, I've got a lot to learn about TGM, but I'm trying -- every day, thanks to Yoda and the many knowledgeable posters here.

Incidentally, Mac said that last year he was striking the ball better than ever and planned to attempt to get back on the regular PGA Tour again at 53, but unfortunately seriously injured his elbow in a fall a few months ago and had to have surgery on it. At the school in January he couldn't straighten his right arm and was relegated to hitting no more than 50 yard pitches. Hopefully, he'll regain his form, either right handed or left handed . He plays from both sides, in fact once shot a 68 left-handed in a US Open qualifier. He's very interested in biomechanics and believes that learning how to swing left-handed taught him a lot about training the body for various key moves.

Bruce

Re: Mac O'Grady and TGM
 

Thanks for posting this...

Can you elaborate on this? Why the eyes are so important...

Wouldn't this produce a shut clubface? The strong grip with the flat left wrist.

I believe I've heard before that he prefers a closed (or "strong) face angle so he can "hold it off" through the ball and not hit the ball left...

Thanks

I think Mac said something to the effect that the eyes are the portal to the brain and also affect our balance. He's researched the bioscience behind EVERY facet of the swing. He wants the eyes to be as parallel to the plane as possible into the follow-through and finish. He would hold a clubshaft parallel to the plane line on the follow-through and tell you to keep your head and eyes parallel to it.

I don't know the answer to the grip question. I can say, however, that on the backswing once the hands get to hip high (P2 position as Mac calls it -- there are 8 positions to the swing) the right wrist begins to cock so that the clubshaft doesn't get under the plane. I'm sure many will dispute this, as I know from Yoda's teachings that the right wrist should never cock, only bend, although I think Homer merely said it was "ideal". I have struggled with this issue, but if I don't feel like there is some cocking of the right wrist I seem to get the clubhead too far inside and off plane. Perhaps I can get some help with that issue on this forum.

One other point I forgot to mention. At the top of the BS, Mac advocates a straight trail leg (not locked though), much like Sam Snead.

Bruce

Bew69,
Thanks for your ideas and contributions....I too have spent time with Mac O'Grady....A lot of time...(For most it's a one or two time deal and you're OUT.... so surviving the first couple visits is truly a rare, event, let alone being "cooped" up in the same suite!!!) ... And for those who ever get close too a fire ....eventually they will get BURNT....

Mac has several models( These models are based upon how to "adjust the Golfing Machine" and the" Human Machine to the intended ball flight" ...Trajectory, Curvature, Distance and Direction)...

And what you've desribed in your post is only a small ....very, very small sample....1/1,000,000 of his "extensive research with MORAD"....This fraction is NO EXAGGERATION!!!!

Yes, Mac had an extensive training in the "Golfing Machine" from Mr. Kelley himself and others, as well as a continued phone dialogue with Mr. Kelley as well. He expressed to me on more than one occasion that he still has a "love and reverence" toward Mr.Kelley and his years of work with the Machine. A love perhaps that was missing from his own childhood upbringing....WE'LL NEVER KNOW....

The book itself has and is always credited by Mac as his starting point with his own continued research on the "Human Machine and it's marriage to the Golfing Machine" It is unfortunate for all of Golfdom and Mr.O'Grady that it's relationships with most are only temporary at Best....

He truly is a "Golfing Genius"....He like so few others can actually articulate and demonstrate the applications of the Yellow Book!!!!

.....However, what bothers Mac is not the Machine....but some of those who are unwilling to see it's "Latitude in Instruction" in using the Machine and it's Principles.... So.... it would be fair to say that Mac doesn't bash the Book. He still studies the "Yellow Book" to this day and a whole bunch of other Books!!!!....He just doesn't care too much for those who have a very narrow perspective when it comes to the Book.

The eyes which are located in the Head are what need to be stable or centrally foviated on the object to maintain the balance centers located in the eyes, ears, and muscular system ....( The could be viewed by some as the ideal definition of a stable or stationary head)....You see ....one must be able to rotate the head and neck whille maintaining central focus on the ball this is called the "Sacadiian Reflex" of the eyes.

This web site created by Lynn Blake is for discussion on the Golfing Machine...

Although I owe Mac O'Grady a lot .... As well as, Lynn Blake..I mean BOTH.... A lot of credit for my education, not just in the Golfing Machine....But for the Game itself and some valuable life lessons...

I feel it would be in the best interest for all, if this particular thread be CLOSED to only Golfing Machine information and discussion...

Knowing both parties personally....Lynn Blake and Mac O'Grady ....I feel it would be best to keep the seperate identities of information....SEPERATED.... This is my personal opinion!!!!

Pride,Self Centeredness, and Ego destroys Relationships !!!!

It is the root of all Evil!!!

I will try at best to no longer post on this particular thread....Mac O'Grady and TGM due to personal interests in BOTH wonderful sources of Information.

Annikan

Annikan,

Sorry. Of course, I'll respect the wishes of our moderator if this thread should be closed. I was only looking for some TGM insight into Mac's teachings from those more knowledgeable than I, especially since Mac does claim that much of his swing theory is based on TGM.

I am far more interested in the similarity or dissimilarity of the teaching methods than I am about Mac as a person. There are plenty of Mac bashers out there. I'm not one of them.

Bruce

Bew69,

No apologies necessary....You're interest in the TGM and it's relevance to Mac O'Grady should be discussed....Discussions in this forum are not "Policed" by me.... but others who are affiliated with Lynn's best interest in mind ....If you want to "PM" me on this subject..... I'll be happy to "SHARE" with you anything that I can....I appreciate your interest!!!!

No Apologies Necessary....Just another interested learner of the History of the Golfing Machine!!!!

Annikan

Fresh Air
 

An open window is great for airing out a room. As long as personalities are respected, I have no objection to discussing TGM in relation to other instructional systems or methods.

No. no and no.

Please disscuss all methods and Mac's.

Let us not forget the following:

Mac's famous statement "TGM is Tragically Flawed."

Anyway, no one ever talks about anyone else's research, only Mac.

What does he think everyone else is doing, playing tiddlely winks?

I really could go on for days about Phil McGleno, but, I'd rather just discuss what he teaches.

Master Yoda,

Thanks for your blessing....

I have felt that it is imperative to have a Golfing Machine background in order to truly understand the MORAD research....

In regards to the grip question ....A Pre-Turned grip of 45 degrees to the right is compatible with Angled Hinging....A Half roll.... so the Pre-Turned Grip is "Halfway" to eliminate some turn and roll during the backstroke, release, and follow-through intervals. It also is more compatible with a "Cut Shot" Procedure and the Paddlewheel Concept of Angled Hinging. If you look very closely ....very closely... the reason it looks so "STRONG" is because "Pre-Turned Grips" have a different degree of Bend by adjusting the Address Inclination of the Clubshaft!!!!

For Example, Mac's set-up is with a very sharp #3 Accumulator on the Hands Only Plane...Then shifts to Elbow and then Turned Shoulder during the backstroke and comes down in a wide variety of ways depending on the shot at hand!!!! This is his individual preference and has VERY VALID reasons for that Variation at Address.

However, if he were to swing more "cross-line" toward right field ...I believe he would adjust his "Machine" and raise the shaft up to a more orthodox looking address that most are trained to see and they would not have a problem with it. His approach has tremendous....Latitude in Instruction....

For Example ...If you have a pre-turned grip and you lower the Shaft which increases the "acuteness" of the #3 Accumulator...this lowering will increase the amount of address Bend in the Left Wrist ....Thus "affecting" the Plane of the Clubface(More Closed wichich is compatible for Angled Hinging)....Conversely by raising the shaft and decreasing the #3 Accumulator it will decrease the Address Bend of the Left Wrist . Try it for yourself !!!!

By the way as a reminder 7-2-#3
-The back of the Flat Left Wrist and the Lag Pressure Point (6-C-2-0) BOTH facing down the Angle of Approach(2-J-3) Otherwise, per 7-3, both must face down the right forearm Impact Fix Alignment....This means the hands are not facing each other down the Target Line, but looking down the angle of approach of the right forearm angle of approach at impact Fix....Look closely at Mr. O'Grady's Grip very, very close to what is described in 7-2 with the Left Hand perhaps pre-turned a little mote to accomodate for his preference toward Angled Hinging....

See Sam Snead's Grip Type....Then if you want it a little stronger yet....check out Lee"Buck" Trevino's. Then a little more...Paul Azinger!!!!

Many have wondered, why the MORAD Stuff is so HUSH-HUSH....

Try this ....If you you were testing and trying out something and you were thinking of publishing or inventing something for a business venture and you showed some friends some of your findings wouldn't you ask perhaps for some confidentiality...Especially if it were in a constant state of change or evolution....Sure you would want a little respect for your effort!!!

Just like Mr. Kelley's Beautiful work with the Yellow Book was in q constant state of evolution....Why do think there are Six edtions and perhaps the Seventh in the Future!!! Mr. O'Grady doesn't claim to have "INVENTED" anything....He has just classified ....and re-classified infromation and is constantly "testing" things out!

Will He ever publish?....My Guess ...Probably NO!!!...He writes beautifully...Not just about golf either....He's very creative and does believe it or not ....He has a great imagination and sense of humor!!!!

I have absolutely no reason to defend Mr. O'Grady, however, I greatly appreciate and respect his work to this day.

Just as I have the same "Respect" for Master Yoda and his great contributions and "Return" with this spectacular forum!!!!!

Thanks for your "Fresh Air" Approach, Master Yoda

Annikan

Excellent information from Annikan and bew69!!!!

Mr. O'Grady sets up very low with the hands and bends over quite a bit(first axis tilt). I have noticed that he does not maintain the first Axis tilt through the ball... i.e. the spine angle straightens(more toward vertical) some. Is this what he wants? If so, what is the reason?

Since you have gotten to Mac, I'm sure you have seen, and been around, Tour players and good ball strikers. So, in comparison, how good does Mac really hit it? Also, Mac seems like an interesting person...someone I would definantly like to talk with someday...and I was wondering what way, if any, I could get in contact with him someday?

MGJordan,

How good does Mac hit it...Well, let's put it this way... when I was working with Keith Clearwater in the 1999 US Open "my wife" and I watched Tiger close-up, really close-up and he really can move it. Since he was next door with Mark O'Meara our vantage point was pretty cool("inside the ropes of the driving range"). We got to see greatness up front and center!!!

The following year my wife and I went to our first symposium in Palm Springs and my wife ....my wife who knows both the Golfing Machine and the MORAD stuff commented on how Mac's impact "Sounds Different from Everyone Else!" and his "Control of the Ball is Amazing!" ...Different from Tiger Woods....She said all that needs to be said!!!

Side Bar ....How many people do you know that can hit draws and fades left-handed with the "backside" of a right-handed Taylor Made Rescue club and call the shot before hand...Ask Mr. Jack Lumpkin...He was right there with us watching this feat!!!

Annikan

Brian: I can't dispute whether Mac said TGM was "tragically flawed". At the January symposium he said TGM was "60% good". He did not elaborate on the comment, but I thought he might have meant that, in his opinion, about 60% was needed for practical application for the golfing student. Who knows, but I didn't hear him mention anything about flaws.

MGJordan: Mac resides in Palm Springs. I don't know how to contact him. He gave me his email address after the recent symposium but I don't think he would like me giving it out. For what it's worth, I sent him an email after the school and it went unanswered.

Mac said he would publish his research soon, probably within the year and will have a software program to accompany his findings.

My AI, Ted Britschgi, has also stated that Mac compressed the ball more than anyone he ever saw, creating a unique cannon shot sound.

Although he couldn't hit full shots due to his injury, I did witness Mac hitting flop shots greenside using a 2-iron! Something to behold... He worked with Seve for years and, in fact, teaches his short game method as the model.

Bruce

Matt, we had several Macophiles at our Pine Needles workshop. I also know a few in my area. If you like I'll ask.

6BMike,

I love you very much...You know that Brah!!!

No name calling"Macophiles" because those "Macophiles" have plenty of names for those who follow the Golfing Machine and it's leaders...

This is the exact reason ...I requested the thread be CLOSED!!!

No Darts...Just an open-mind and a deep appreciation for all parties!!!

You know at least Mac sits in the same church...

Maybe not the same pew...But it is the same denomination!!!!...

Give him a little love even if you don't agree with his doctrine or followers...I have NO reason to support him...

Love your enemy as yourself....That's not easy...But it is the "TRUTH"

Yours,
Annikan

PS. Looking Forward to another Musical Slide-Show!!!

If you would ask around, I would appreciate it.

From all accounts I have heard of Mac, he is a little crazy. This is the exact reason I would like to meet him. Most people I have met who seem a little "off" really are the most intelligent and interesting.

I know Mac gets bashed a bit on the forums, but he must be on to something. Whether or not he is, I don't know, but those who have worked with him seem to gain something valuable.

Lagster: I think what may be happening is that Mac believes the pelvis must release through impact. Watch the video of Hogan and you'll see how the pelvis is thrust forward and up, as though he is putting his fanny into the shot. Question: Is this procedure mentioned in TGM?

Bruce

Annikan,
I have always admired Keith Clearwater's game, could you elaborate on what happened to him, what you worked on with him? I would love to know his stroke pattern and some of his game thoughts.

thanks,

Todd

MBC Pro,

I worked with Keith for only one season....traveled to CVS Charity and the BC OPEN....and of course the 1999 US OPEN..

When you're working with a Touring Professional it's like tuning up a Formula One Race Car....You don't have to build anything ....it's already built....
Keith has had great instruction throughout his career...He worked with Ben Doyle throughout college and Mac O'Grady, Phil Ritson and a whole host of others!!!!

So, I really didn't do much except I felt that he had some hitting mechanics and swinging mechanics mixed up!!!! I didn't really teach him any thing except perhaps consult with him on a few things...He knows what he's doing !!!!

I feel that Keith...Has a tendency to rise up out of his forward bend a little prematurely which shifts his plane-line and/or deliverylie cross line to the right causing some errant blocks and hooks....

But trust me....even Ben Hogan stated after Keith's round of 64 at Colonial that Keith Clearwater can really hit it and can really play!!!!....

What's holding him back..Not his body like so many are quick to blame ....cause that "dude" is not only strong, but Flexible ...Perhaps his putting and scoring skills ... Definitely not his technique!!!!

I think he now works with Robert Baker....Personally, I feel he was at his best when working with Mac....But He might choose to disagree....I still pull for Keith!!! In this businesss you can't take things personally if they don't work out....Look at Tiger and Butch .... That got peronal ....Not Good for either party!!!

Keith has used in my opinion, Swinging for his Longer Toys and Hitting for some of his shorter shots....

Some of my concerns were his Wrist Action, Elbow Location, and Shoulder Motion Components were more for hitting, Which lead me to beleive he used a lot of Hitting....But I look back now 6 years later and recall a lot of swingingas well!!!


Annikan

Bew 69,

I do not believe that you will find the extension of the spine and tailbone from impact to finish any where in the TGM....

However, it is "imperative" that you find ...." The Spine and Extemities" by Hoppenfield ... I believe Stanley Hoppenfield....Most College bookstores have this for the study of Exercise Science and Introduction to Biomechanics...You will learn a ton about the Human Machine and all the different range of motions, styles of motion, and most importantly Planes of Motion of each of the 13 Major Joints...

Remember TGM has multiple centers....Well each joint has a center!!!!

It better be in your library soon, Brah!!!!

DOG:The Bounty Hunter....great Show on A&E

Annikan

Annikan... You mentioned that Mr. O'Grady has done extensive studies into biomechanics. Do you think this is one of the reasons for his success in teaching and learning about golf swing mechanics?

Do you think his research would be helpful in preventing golf related injuries, and/or training(weights etc.) for golf?

Annikan,

Thanks for the Keith update, I was able to watch him at Augusta one year and was very impressed with his ball striking, as you mentioned his short game has always seemed a little suspect. I knkd of figured the workout thing had been bogus, weight training in my opinion can be very beneficial for golf when done correctly.

Todd

While I've only been exposed to Mac's ideas at a very minute level, his concept of '45 degrees' is quite solid and something I often find myself coming back to in my own swing experimentation. The simple answer to the grip question IMO is that the left hand grip at 45 degrees is both anatomically, and geometrically in balance - given a right hand that is basically verticle to the plane.

As for Clearwater, yeah, I remember watching him at the 87 Open and I thought he had one of the best swings on tour, great to see him and Purtzer on the range, and the course - I think Keith shot a 64 in the opening round (my memory may be failing me there). I do see what you mean about him coming out of his angles though.

Re: Mac O'Grady and TGM
 

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The reference to REVERSE PIVOT is interesting. Mac likes the way that Hogan and Snead both had a version of a REVERSE PIVOT. Johnny Miller and Jack Nicklaus, I believe, also have some of this in their swings.

10-14-D REVERSE is in TGM. Is this the same move, or is Mac talking about something much different?

According to the post, this kind of pivot had something to do with maintaining one's Center of Gravity.

What do you think?

Mac, like Ben prefers a straighten right leg on the backswing.

Like Bobby Jones, Hogan, Jack, Floyd, and others, this straight leg gives the appearance of a reverse pivot but all are merely centered between their legs.

Lagster,

I would agree with 6bMike. Mac showed us that you won't actually reverse pivot if you get the club going on plane back, in and up on the backswing. However, if you take the club straight back (outside the plane), then at the top you'll probably have a reverse pivot.

Bruce

OK... so with the Standard Knee Action, it kind of APPEARS like a Reverse Pivot, but actually is not.

So... it sounds like the takeaway is very important to keeping this pivot in order. You went into this slightly in your first post.

That's my take on it, but then again I am a mere rookie at TGM despite reading about every post that Master Yoda has written.

Bruce

The difference is 'counter fall' - a reverse pivot moves 'center', a 'counter fall' keeps center stable - Similar to Austin's view of the hips/tailbone swinging, with the head/center being stable.

A right anchor keeps the tailbone still (bottom of spine), standard knee keeps the head still (top of spine).

Either the 'top swings' or the 'bottom swings'. (keep the hips level - right anchor, or allow the hips to tilt - standard knee action, right leg straightens)

Hitter's IMO should use standard action because it really, really helps the crossline hip motion.

Despite what is being taught as Austin's approach now (which isn't what I think he really did), I have really grown to appreciate his swing and theories more and more - especially his hip motion.

Just an observation...

When I, Brian Manzella, The Itallian Stallion, says I like a straight leg SOMETIMES, I get jumped by the peanut gallery.

If Mac says it, is AOK.

If Ben says it too, it is AOK.

Or course if ONLY Me and Ben say it, again the peanut gallery attacks.

no?

I'm a fan of yours Brian, but with all due respect I think Mac has been attacked more than you and Ben will be in your entire combined lifetimes.

Bruce

I hope that all the leaders of the House of TGM hold the "sameness" that ..."If nobody is yelling and throwing rocks at you, you are not making a difference."

I have been banned from 4 web forums, does Mac visit web forums?

I will post an audio commentary to this Mac thread and all things MORAD tonight on my site.

I'll link it here.

Brian,

This is not GFI, GEA, GO, not even Chuck's and I know that unlike other joints, Lynn runs his forum with a high standard of respect. I don’t think anyone on this forum, even those that cross post, feels any disrespect toward you. Continue to teach The Golfing Machine to us the way you want to teach it. It is what we expect and want.

Carry on Doc.

Happy St Patty's Day- I see we are always in green. Pints of Guinness on me til closing. Drink up Lads.

Incoming!
 

Thanks for your wisdom and 'cattle prod,' Theodan.

I don't know about the House of TGM, but Bagger and Trig and I are prepared to operate in the 'hunkered down' mode!

Moooo!

A good Laugh...
 

Good One Yoda.....always good to have some comic relief....

DG

Ed... Are you talking about COUNTERFALL as in Mr. David Lee's definition of counterfall( a slight backwards fall into the left heel that allows the body to rotate without trying... on the downswing) or are you speaking of something else? He believes there must be a COUNTERFALL to offset the OUTWARD PULL and WEIGHT of the arms. His procedure would probably be considered a PURE SWING.

how good is ogrady?
i remember watching McGleno get driver airborne off the cement of Motor Ave. in LA. The bottom of the club most lightly scratched. That's shallow steepness - something to see.
i remember there was a pole located about 240 yds down the left side of the rancho park driving range From the right side of the range he'd fire a variety of shots with his strong 4 wood - persimmon- and hit the pole. He would take on bettors - i can hit 1/10, 2/10 etc.
He is a good soul who spent many a night at the golf course, as he had no real family home. If he lucked out, a friend would invite him to spend the night. I have a healthy respect for McGleno - because I know just a bit about the arduous route his life has taken.
Yep, I will always have some deep respect for McGleno.

sandog

I'm not familiar with Lee's definition. As for my view, Hogan did this well, more of a 'breaking down a door with your left shoulder' move, if that makes sense, perhaps what you described as Lee's view to a small extent.

The inability to 'stop' at the top/transition on your right leg because you are falling back onto your left.

Ed,

Yes... this type of thing can be seen easily in guys like Jack Nicklaus, Trevino, Hogan, Player, Couples, Els... i.e., the "fall back on to the left."

The backwards fall part is nearly invisable, but Lee says it is in there. Especially in the very smooooth... what he calls Gravity players. In TGM language... these smoooth guys would probably be variations of True Centrifugal Force Swingers.