Aligning the Clubface
 

This post is problematic for me.
http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ght=separation

..............

The True Swinger allows Centrifugal Force to align for Impact all three Functions of the Club, i.e., the Clubhead, the Clubshaft and the Clubface.

..............

Yoda

Something I am missing in the physics, club, machine or in my in interpretation. Suspect this aligning is CF reacting to something I have not accounted for. Gravity? Shaft is a snake?

Bumpy

Bumpy consider the difference between the farmers flail and the golfers flail .....

I am still missing a step somewhere
 

:scratch:

I do not see how 2-k gets to a square clubface for a true swinger.

Bumpy

Watch BD review release with his grandson at about 1:00 to 1:10 of this clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cns3T...eature=related

HB

Easy answer - however not one that is quickly answered. Possibly the information below will help you - since I'm on perma hold with Cox Cable this morning.

Let's talk in terms of the "pure" "simple" theory - "outside" of any particular practical golfing example - just to understand the basic principle at play.

First let's clarify the concept "CF aligning". The broader principle is that it could be any straight line force through the longitudinal center of mass of the golf club. So similar to just a golf club swinging in a circle with the pull straight out through the longitudinal center of mass i.e. sweetspot. Let's look at an example that you can see. Take a sand wedge and a 5 iron and hold each lightly at the grip end with thumb and index finger - shaft hanging down towards the ground - that straight line force - gravity in this situation- pulls through the center of mass and aligns each club. The sand wedge leading edge is more closed than the five iron because of the construction of the clubface is different (wider)i.e. more mass behind the leading edge. Likewise, rotating these clubs in a circle would automatically align their club faces - differently but consistently. So you could rely on that principle to consistently align your clubface.

If there wasn't other issues at play as in a human swinging a golf club - for instance if you just had a golf club swinging around a centered rotating pole - attached by a rope say and moving fast enough where the shaft was parallel to the ground - then based on the way they construct golf clubs - you would always have the face closed to the motion of the clubhead at any time and therefore if hitting a ball - you would always produce a draw shot.

This issue of CF aligning the clubface relates to Homer's "Hookface" definition.

It should be noted that Ben Doyle's use of the term "Aiming Point" has no relation to the Aiming Point concept in the Golfing Machine. Not that his point potentially doesn't have relevance or practical implications or useage. The problem arises for people learning the book, seeing the "1st" authorized instructor - using a term from the book in a completely different way and context than the one described in the book. Personally I'd be much more careful in using the terms - if I knew that you read a instructional book on how to drive a car I wouldn't tell you to put the key in the ignition if I meant put the key in the trunk lock to open the trunk.

That is why I restricted use of BD to a time frame 1 to 1:10 (edit that to 1:02 to 1:08.5). That is the point in release where cf uses the golfers flail to get #2 then #3 going.

HB

Regarding the highlighted part of your post. Let's say the CG offset produces a 5 degree closure of the leading edge. Using the plane of motion as a zero reference the leading edge will be 5* or 95* closed ?

Nothing directed at you HB - it was more of a side comment outside the context of this thread.
I though I would clarify - as I think it could come across differently without this clarification.

I think I understand your question but I'm not 100% sure.
See if this answers it.

Using a golf example - say we take the direction of the clubhead movement at lowpoint. Let's call that line the target line. The leading edge is perpendicular to that target line if it is "square" to the target line, or 90 degrees. If the face was 5 degrees open let's call that 85 degrees and if the face is 5 degrees closed we'll call that 95 degrees to the target line.

So 5 degrees closed of square and 95 degrees closed in relation to the target line.

Let me know if I understood your question properly and if that answered your question.

Outside of your question I would say roughly - closures due to clubhead/face construction in relation to square based on the line of pull through the longitudinal center of gravity would be:
1) Greater as you move towards the wedges and less as you move toward your 2 iron.
2) The leading edge would be up to 20 degrees left of the longitudinal center of gravit for the wedge. That's not a correct answer - haven't measured it. might only be 10 or 8 or something. I'm sure we could measure it while we are hanging the clubs with our thumb and index finger.

[quote=Mike O;93517]I think I understand your question but I'm not 100% sure.
QUOTE]

Let's use your original example it will clear the fog. I will be more exacting in my description. The 5* part I get, anything beyond that is the machine, yes?

Attachment 2903

Bumpy

:scratch:

Words that were clear to me: "inside quadrant", "hip", he might have said "align".

Bumpy

[quote=Bumpy;93518]Regarding your photo/attachment in regard to what I am talking about - 5 degrees DEFINITELY NOT - 95 degrees would be the correct answer in regards to your attachment - and referencing my post. 90 degrees would be a square clubface and no one would have a 5 degree clubface - in reference to your attached drawing. The force through the center of mass would create say 95 degrees but never anything close to the 5 degreee.

In regards to your comment/question:
"The 5* part I get, anything beyond that is the machine, yes?"I have know idea what you are referencing.

Originally Posted by Mike O:

.........for instance if you just had a golf club swinging around a centered rotating pole - attached by a rope say and moving fast enough where the shaft was parallel to the ground - then based on the way they construct golf clubs - you would always have the face closed to the motion of the clubhead at any time.........

This issue of CF aligning the clubface relates to Homer's "Hookface" definition.

______________________________

Last question before I file this away. Make any difference if the plane is angled or vertical?

Bumpy

No -
Just used parallel to the ground for simplicity - easy visualization for the example.

The swivel.

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ght=separation

..............

The True Swinger allows Centrifugal Force to align for Impact all three Functions of the Club, i.e., the Clubhead, the Clubshaft and the Clubface.

..............

Yoda

I read more into it than there is.

Bumpy

In regard to face manipulation only (leaving aside clubhead and shaft manipulation). The farmers flail has the two pieces of wood attached by a string like piece of leather . If the golf shaft were made of string no manipulation of the face would be possible right. Now consider the golfers hands, the connection between the handle and the arms, as being string like.

Whoa didn't I say that Cf aligned the clubface ? There's an echo

Indeed, CF aligns the face for impact, the amount of 'hookface' must be accounted for.

Bumpy

Hey guys,

Go ahead and apply your string theory and we'll compare notes.

:blackeye:

Bumpy

Power package
 

The swinger uses cf to bring the power package, from left shoulder to right elbow into impact. The clubs face is under the control of the flat left hand.
In fact the entire swing should remain under the direction of the hands. CF involved or not.

HB

A Swinger should have no control, just faith in the physical science.

Seriously wasn't it you that had the theories on the other thread.about how c.f. doesn't align anything

I spend 8 pages explaining that c.f. aligns the face and got nothing g but you and homer are wrong we have new theories that are scientific and c.f. doesn't do anything in the golf swing then a new thread opens Lynn says c.f. aligns the club face everyone immediately agrees

In any Golfing Machine discussion a starting point is what Homer Kelly thought or wrote about regardless of whether anyone thinks it is correct or incorrect. Once you've established that frame of reference you can or have the option to disagree or diverge off of it and support your conclusions with facts.

Your post above shows that you don't understand the difference between a "True Swinger" and a "Manipulated Swinger" as defined by Homer Kelley.

Move the needle guys.... this forum needs a shot of adrenalin .....

================================================== ========

O.K. - Line in the sand.

OB said "Move the needle guys.... this forum needs a shot of adrenalin ....."

lets roll;

The hands control - EVERYTHING - Or "U" just have some "junk" in your swing.

The left arm is "thrown" off the chest.

The right forearm motion is a "slap"

These two elements are "doing their thing" via CF.

Within the assembled structure between the left shoulder and the right elbow there are only 2 (TWO) "in flight" adjustment made. See 2K #4 - #5. SWIVEL - That would be left arm (and everything attached to it going with it - left wedge. AND, HINGE PIN - that would be left wrist - . cocks and uncocks.

NOW- what is it PRECISELY that is "off the reservation" so to speak??

Let us know or I will hit your ball into the woods!!

HB

Enough adrenalin, Eh ?!?

Precise Alignments are established and verified at Impact Fix. Included are the Flat, Vertical and Level Left Wrist, and the Flying Wedges Aligned at 90 degrees.

no change
 

AND- The precision alignments mentioned are not disturbed by th e "2 adjustments" I mention.
hb

Somewhat common in forum posts are people not understanding where someone else is coming from - they are coming from a different perspective that hasn't been identified and the other person is coming from a different perspective that isn't identified - and no progress is made. I'm sure there are other reasons that no agreement or progress is made in forum threads.

I'm trying my best to clarify my post -
1st: Bumpy started this thread - labeled "Clubface Alignment" and then had this quote "The True Swinger allows Centrifugal Force to align for Impact all three Functions of the Club, i.e., the Clubhead, the Clubshaft and the Clubface."

Any and all of my posts relate to this specific topic - How does Centrifugal Force align the clubface in a TRUE swing - as I tried to shed some light on Bumpy's original question. I'm making an effort to define the context and boundaries of my post(s) - I'm hoping that others will do the same.

In a different context, I have no issues with HB's post. However, in the context of Bumpy's original question - it sheds no light on the subject matter.

Further, when I said HB had no understanding between a True swinger and a Manipulated swinger - his follow-up post doesn't confirm or deny it. For me, HB would have to either state how the True swinger aligns the clubface versus the manipulated swinger OR ask questions to understand that concept.

To make some progress it takes both sides to work towards clear communication and the goal to understand a concept - I'm open to that - it's not about getting fired up, getting emotional. Important in any forum discussion is agreeing on what topic the discussion will be limited to - who's perspective are we going to dig into? In this case I let the lead post and question determine that and I have stayed the course, because if you don't clearly limit and define the area of discussion then again, there is no way you can come to any agreement. HB in his last post is making a point that is perfectly correct in the context that he is using it - just not the correct context i.e. how a CF aligns the clubface in a true swing. In that context Daryl's post does nothing either.

I understand's OB's adrenalin post - however the effort for cold, clear communication and the effort to stay on topic - would be much better than adding adrenalin to your existing approach. I've tried to clearly define the context and boundaries to my post(s) - I hope others will do the same with their posts and if something is unclear then please ask specific questions until it is clear and I'll try to provide specific answers - so that progress can be made in either showing myself where there is a mistake in my knowledge or logic OR where the person asking the questions understands something that they didn't understand before - when we get to one of those two options then there is a WIN and a purpose for using a forum - otherwise it's a waste of time.

Leaping forward
 

O.K. again.

No Risk- No Reward. So here goes.

2 approaches:

1. The COG of the clubhead displaced from the shaft allows CF to aligne thye clubface.

2. The clubface is aligned and held by the flat left hand and is brought into impact with the flat left hand, the left wedge, #3 accumulator etc. all with RHYTHM. And the CF is driving everything. the shaft down the plane, the club head down. ecverything. And that aligns the clubface.

#1 is WRONG, AND I do not think HK ment to convey that- although he did some "experiments" that would trap U into thinking that way.
MY ADVICE- fORGET ALL THIS "SWEET SPOT" STUFF. It is not helpfull.

#2 is correct. HK conveyed that in his discussions of hinges, wedges, rhythm steering, etc.


So YES, from the perspective of thos who hold with #1, it would appear the subject is being changed by those who hold with #2, and vice versa.

The #1 vs #2 debate Is hard but should be made.

I'm done for now.

HB

The professor gets it wrong right out of the gate - the axis of rotation is not the shaft, but a line from PP#3 through the sweetspot - that's a BIG error, because the clubhead does not rotate around the shaft, but rather, around the imaginary sweetspot line, which enables the sweetspot to move perfectly on plane without weaving around like a drunk driver.

So yes, it does make it harder to understand, because it's incorrect. :(

The Throwout of CF Aligns the Clubface for "Horizontal Hinging". The Clubhead, Clubshaft and Clubface all rotate about the Hinge, while the Clubface is Aligned to the Horizontal Plane.

So....CF Aligns the Clubface. This is also "True" for Hands Manipulated Swingers.

See why discussion can not be had!
I with answer with the same depth of information U provided.
What you said is Just wrong.
I was going to explain it by saying you are a DOPE but that would not fit the rules of the forum so I( will just say, have a good Day.

hb

Do U disagree with me? If U hold with #1 pleas provide the physics or HK Ref as a start.
hb

What???? The Professor is talking about "Swivels" and Clubface alignments (although he's incorrect) lol. I thought we were talking about Hinge Actions and Clubface alignment.

I agree with you.

Delete trhe Prof. article. Requires too much thought.

I took it out of my post- Want to taslk about it do it with Joe

HB

GREAT.
Lets see where it goes.

HB