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1-F Hitter or Swinger?

Quote:

Originally Posted by johngolf33

What makes one decide to be a "hitter" or a "swinger?" I know Homer said if strong hit and if not swing. There must be more to the equation. :oops:

The Backstroke is normally the tip-off. Longer, 'looser' Backstrokes -- Swingers. Shorter, 'stiffer' Backstrokes -- Hitters.

Hitter or Swinger? GM#65

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaminid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoda

When Swingers go to the End (10-21-0-3) of the Stroke, the Clubshaft goes to parallel to the ground or even below. Though the No. 3 Pressure Point and Clubshaft remain firmly welded together -- there is no 'slippage' -- the movement of the Club to parallel or beyond causes the Top of the Shaft to Load against the knuckle of the hand.

This condition, along with the Left Thumb also directly Behind the Shaft (10-2-0), establishes and enables maximum On Plane Thrust Support through Impact. (10-2-0/B).

Two questions:

1) Why do swingers need to go to parallel or beyond? I don't remember seeing that in the book. In fact, it seems that Homer said that you should be able to use the same lag loading for all lengths of strokes (which always confused me, because I could never figure out how to "drag" load with a putt).

2) To get my left thumb directly behind the shaft, it seems like my left hand is turned too far to the right for a strong single-action grip.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. :oops:

1. Swingers do not need to go to parallel or beyond. In fact, only physically weak players who need a very long period of time to achieve their maximum Hand Speed should go that far. For all others, the long swing is more of a problem than a solution because they reach their maximum Hand Speed before Impact and thereby dissipate the Lag (6-C-2-D). For all Swingers, it is only necessary that they Float or Drag Load (7-19-2/3) the Secondary Lever Assembly (the Club). This can be done without the use of gravity in the Rotating Lag Pressure Point procedure, i.e., the pull of gravity causing the Lag to Load against the Top of the Shaft as the Club goes to parallel or beyond.

2. Homer was able to Grip the Club with the Left Hand Vertical and the Left Thumb Aft of the Shaft. He actually had a 'gap' between the Left Forefinger and Thumb. Personally, I prefer to Grip the Club with the Left Wrist Turned slightly to accomodate the Aft Thumb. Strong tendencies (1-H) and Psychological Needs must be accomodated!

P.S. To clear your Fog on how to Drag Load a Putting Stroke, simply use the Pull Minor Basic Stroke (10-3-D) to accelerate the Club longitudinally (with either Arm).

Hitters vs. Swingers GM#104

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelawareGolf

Yoda,
Not to get off the subject to much...you and Ray are having a great exchange...would you agree that Arnold Palmer swung his woods, especially his driver and punched his irons (at least his mid to short irons). I've seen video tape of Arnold with his driver swing (video tape of Arnold in his prime and I have seen him play live over the last ten years) and it definitely wasn't a pure hitting motion, his backstroke came to a stop at a definite "END" assembly position much like Nicklaus It wouldn't surprise me that Arnold uses a 4 Barrel swinging pattern with his driver. I would have to agree that Arnold uses a pure hitting stroke pattern (full shots) with angled hinging with his scoring clubs. It makes sense...from what I understand, Bobby Clampett used the same method in his prime!!!

DG

DG,

You are absolutely right about Arnie in his prime. Like almost everybody else, he had a mixed set of Hitting and Swinging Components. He set up as a Swinger (with the classic Bent Left Wrist instead of the Hitter's preferred Fix alignment) and he swung to the End (parallel and beyond) instead of stopping at the Top (of the Line Path). He used a Shoulder Turn Takeaway to take his Hitter's Single Wrist Action (Angled Hinge 10-18-C-2) to the Top. From there, though, he was all Drive. An out-and-out Four Barrel Hitter. In his early years, he even teed his Driver low and took turf! And he always had the 'Drive-Out' of the Right Arm Thrust carrying him 'above Plane' into that famous Palmer whirlybird Finish.

Homer told me that Palmer's Finish was the result of using the Cross-Line Angle of Approach procedure, not the 10-5-A Plane Line. I commented that Palmer's Backstroke was flatter than would be the case using Homer's Angle of Approach procedure with the 10-5-E Closed Plane Line. He said that was okay, "you'll just have a little sharper Cross-Line Motion" as a result. But, he also said that it could easily be overdone and that you're "skirting disaster" -- the big hook. Homer also liked the fact that Arnie hit 'Down' so agressively. And that he played the ball back and took such big divots with the short irons. Clearly, Arnie liked to Hit. And so did Homer!

I followed Arnie at my first Masters -- his 10th -- in 1964. I was 17, he was 34, and he won for the 4th and final time. Forty years later -- with me at 57 and he at 74 -- I returned to the Augusta National that special Friday of his final competitive round just to pay homage. The King's hair now was white, his body thicker, and his Stroke shorter, but no matter: The magic was still there. Not since Bobby Jones has a golfer so transcended his sport. The crowd loved Arnie, and he loved them. And on that glorious spring day, framed by the rolling green fairways and tall Georgia pines he had first seen fifty years before, Arnold Palmer bid his Army farewell. As we welcomed him home with our applause and our cheers and our smiles, I can tell you that there wasn't a dry eye in the house...

Including, I'm proud to say, my own.

Hitters vs. Swingers GM#106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ray Cayse

Yoda,

Thanks for the prompt and well organized reply to my post. I just want to address your item #9, for now. All three golfers you mention are, or have been, world class. To do that, they have to have a four barrel swing method. This means to me that what appears to be angled hinging is really a combination of horizontal and vertical hinging. (Is this what is Homer called "dual horizontal hinging"?)

Ray Cayse

When using the Right Shoulder to launch the Driving Right Arm, Palmer, Stadler and Trevino are Four-Barrel Hitters, not Four-Barrel Swingers.

Dual Horizontal Hinging employs a Dual Hinge arrangement: A Primary Hinge -- the Horizontal Hinge -- to control the Clubface alignment and a Secondary Hinge -- the Angled Hinge -- to keep the Clubshaft On Plane.

Angled Hinging employs only one Hinge (because the Clubshaft is already, by definition, On Plane). Hence, there is no 'Dual' Angled Hinging.

Hitters vs. Swingers GM#109

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelawareGolf

Yoda,
Where in the book does it say to launch the downswing with the right shoulder for hitters (make the section connections clear on this if it takes multi-section references)? Hitters using a right arm throw trigger....10-20-B says "The Right Arm (6-B-1) simply pushes the lever assemblies (6-A) toward impact with either early or late release". Does the right arm and right shoulder work in concert at the start of the downswing to create a 4 barrel power package for the hitter ....How about the swinger....with the "Shoulder Turn Throw" available to swingers (is 10-20-C right shoulder thrust???)....is 10-20-C right shoulder thrust that you have been talking about...that trigger type does not combine with 10-20-B....10-20-C combines with only one other trigger type and that is a swingers trigger type (10-20-E) see section 23 in chapter 11 for trigger type combinations.

3 barrel hitter = right arm trigger type only
4 barrel hitter = right arm trigger type and right shoulder thrust at the start of the downswing (and impact)? Does the right shoulder power the downstoke and release?

Yoda, can you clear up the use of right shoulder thrust for hitters and swingers! In section Homer says, " 6-B-4-A MAXIMUM POWER is obtained by using maximum On Plane Shoulder Turn Thrust againt Pressure Point #4 per 7-19, and maximum Swing Radius (6-B-0)." Why does Homer reference 7-19 in this section...and why doesn't Homer reference 10-20-C in this section if the "Shoulder Turn Throw" trigger type is indeed right shoulder thrust...please lift the fog on right shoulder thrust and trigger type 10-20-C. Thanks big time Yoda....

Great discussion everybody...it's a major one.

DG

DG

I'm out of town for the next week and should have been long gone. I may have Net access, but if I don't, I will answer the questions you've posed when I get back.

For now, regarding your first couple of questions, there are two references that should suffice:

1. "...consider Pivot Thrust...as supplying the initial acceleration of the Hitter's loaded Power Package..." (2-M-4).

2. "Pivot Lag (9-1) is...launching pad for Hitters..." (6-C-0).

The idea is that the Hitter's Right Shoulder functions more as structural support for the Right Arm Thrust instead of active Thrust of the Left Arm. In other words, the Hitter's Right Shoulder provides the 'equal and opposite reaction' support necessary for his Right Arm to Push against. The Swinger's Right Shoulder, on the other hand, actively Drives his 'essentially inert Left Arm.'

I'm outa here!

Hitters vs. Swingers GM#143

Quote:

Originally Posted by ecox3

Yoda,

Thank you for supporting my analogy of hitting and swinging to the shot put and the hammer throw respectfully! Essentially, the role of the right shoulder, the position of the right elbow, and the sequencing of the release are the whole deal!

EC

You teach The Truth, ecox3. Your lesson book must be full!

Hitters vs. Swingers GM#144

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelawareGolf

Yoda,
Now that the post has been moved...Do your thing?

DG

Will do soon, DG. Right now, I'm wet to the bone in seawater, and I have a granddaughter climbing all over me :oops:. For now, 10-20-B and C will have to wait, but soon!

When is a Method a Method?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelawareGolf

No Mike,

This is not about a four barrel swinging procedure!!!!!!!! It's not only about distance, it's actually about a golf stroke that can be used with any club lob wedge thru Driver (combining Power and Accuracy). The lower body does not start the downswing...the muscles of the right forearm start the downswing per 10-20-B and moves the power package to an automatic release point. See 7-19, 10-3-K and 10-11-0-3.

I would have to assume your suggestion that stroke pattern 12-2-0 could be a manipulated stroke is due to it's non-automatic random release? Agree? If so, describe to the class how it's manipulated?

[Bold by Yoda.]

DG

Sorry for butting in, but its after midnight, and I couldn't stand the suspense. It's hard to sleep with these questions just hanging out there! :oops:

The True Swinger allows Centrifugal Force to align for Impact all three Functions of the Club, i.e., the Clubhead, the Clubshaft and the Clubface.

The Manipulated Swinger allows Centrifugal Force to align the Clubhead and the Clubshaft. Using Grip Rotation (7-2) and optionally, a Hinge Action (10-10-C or 10-10-E) other than Dual Horizontal, he himself aligns the Clubface.

The selected Trigger Type, Assembly Point, Loading Action, Delivery Path and Release Point (10-20/21/22/23/24) are simply Stroke Pattern Component Variations and are therefore available to both the True and the Manipulated Swinger.

So, the Swinger's Basic Stroke Pattern (12-2-0) could be either 'True' or 'Manipulated.' The differentiation is not determined by the Assembly, Loading, Triggering, Delivery and Release Components, but by whether or not Centrifugal Force alone is permitted to align the Clubface for Impact.

When is a Method a Method? GM#149

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelawareGolf

Yoda,
If that's the case, the right arm swinger per 7-19 is a true swinger!

DG

The Right Arm Swinger is a 'True' Right Arm Swinger if he allows Centrifugal Force alone to align the Clubface for Impact. Otherwise, he is a 'Manipulated Hands' Right Arm Swinger. Due the Ball Location difficulties experienced by True Swingers as explained in prior posts, I would think that most Right Arm Swingers would choose to 'Manipulate.'

When is a Method a Method? GM#150

Quote:

Originally Posted by DelawareGolf

DG is done...

Last post for me too....I'm wasting my time.

Sorry for shedding some light...

DG,

So what's wrong with being a Manipulated Hands Right Arm Swinger? You've got all the power of the True Right Arm Swinger with the additional ability to control the Ball Location and the Clubface.

Besides, I never said you couldn't be a True Right Arm Swinger (if you wanted to be one). I just said you had an option.

There may be reasons to 'check out,' DG, but this ain't one of'em! C'mon back! :oops: