Turned Shoulder Plane Confusion
 

Every now and then I get an urge to understand the practical use of the turned shoulder plane... but my egg has never fully hatched, just a few cracks here and there. So this time I want to follow thru to the end. Here is the last question I posted, I'll follow it with another.



So I finally have a copy of the yellow book (thanks Smithy :wink: ) and was hoping it would help clear this up for me. We'll, it did and it didn't.

Looking at the pics of 10-6-B and 10-13-B, showing a TSP angle with a Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn, I can see how the rear forearm could be set inline at Fix/Impact with some elbow bend. But if you don’t stand that upright, allowing for an almost horizontal to the ground shoulder turn, I just can't see anyone having the inline shaft/forearm on their TSP without having an essentially straight rear arm :? That stance is more upright than you would advise isn't it?

So I come back to the same question as in my last post. In practice (more waist bend that the pics I've mentioned), when using the TSP angle, will the forearm/shaft form an 'almost inline' condition, as seen in the stickman above? For some reason my gut feeling is that in reality the hands would end up slightly below the TSP, allowing for the inline/on-plane rear forearm. A clip of Els shows this I think.

I should add, I'm not trying to use the TSP, just after greater understanding. By the babble above you can see I have a long way to go.

still confused
 

Anybody?

A few clues
 

When speaking of plane in TGM, we are speaking of clubshaft. There are many plane options as you can see in the book.
So for zero shift - turned shoulder, the clubshaft will travel from startup to impact on a single plane on the TSP. Back, up, and in simultaneously.
One way of adjusting plane shifts is with the #3 accumulator angle, but it is only one way.
For any plane shift, the hitter or swinger will end up with the right forearm on plane through the release interval (pre and post impact), so impact fix would also have this condition. That is part of the magic of the right forearm. It is desirable to have the right forearm on plane at all times, but the key is the release interval.

Bagger

It may be useful to look at what Homer said about plane in 2-F

Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined together at the Sweet Spot - the longitudial center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force. So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweet Spot", or "Swing", Plane. But herein, and unless otherwise noted, "Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application

Re: A few clues
 

OK, Bagger, I'm with you on the Accumulator #3, but I'm not sure what you mean by the "other" ways. Can you add more detail?

I'll admit to going over chapter 2 only very briefly to date, but I could recall reading something to the effect of that 2-F quote, and in my head that matched with what I was seeing on the stickmen. That’s why I came to the conclusion that it was the line b/w the hands (PP#3) and Sweet Spot that should be 'on plane'. Now with Bagger Lance's post it seems I should have given greater credence to 7-6 and the Clubshaft... nevermind :roll:


So Bagger, would these two changes would make the stickmen more accurate?

1. the TSP slicing through not the ball, but a point on the ground where the hosel sits at Fix
2. the right forearm actually on the TSP angle at fix/impact

If No. 2 is correct, my faith in the all the talk of the on plane rear forearm is restored. But now I must return to where this all began for me.

Fix is a rehersal of your Impact alignments, so what you dont want at Impact you dont want at Fix. I take it a straight rear arm is not what you want at Impact. How can you have the shaft and forearm on a TSP angle, without a straight rear arm and without standing basically upright? I just cant see it :cry: :x

OK now I have to hit the sack. I think I know what my dreams will be about, maybe an egg will hatch overnight. Then again, I think some shoulder turn fog may be playing havoc here, more reading is needed.. it's not really THAT late :roll:

Turned Shoulder Line
 

Nevermind,

The downline turned shoulder plane line should run through or just below the armpit or even lower if your shoulder turn is deep. It is your right shoulder location at the completion of your backswing. To execute a zero shift on the turned shoulder plane, your right hand will ride up and down that plane - right on the line - (tracing) and will be vertical to the plane (10-18-C no turn/roll).
It sounds like you desire a zero shift, but Homer really didn't care how you took it back, as long as you are on plane at the release point.

Bagger

No I dont care about zero shift anymore. I just want to understand how you can have the rear shoulder, clubshaft and rear forearm on the same plane without a straight arm.

Please someone answer me these questions three.

1. During release and impact, when using the Turned Shoulder Plane you want the both the right shoulder and clubshaft working down that plane.

2. The right shoulder and clubshaft are now both on the face of the same plane.

3. To provide maximum support you also want the right forearm on that plane.

OR, just answer me this question.

The Hitting swingman does not have his rear forearm on the TSP at impact, is that what you want?

Nevermind,

Sorry so long for a reply. In a perfect world I guess the Right forearm would be perfectly on plane with the clubshaft at impact. A zero shift on the TSP IMO is difficult to set up at fix. You are right the right arm would have to be almost straight. As long as the #1 and #3 pp are on plane and you are maintaining the Flying Wedges I think you would be fine. I would also like to hear Lynn's comments on this.

Hope this helps,
Hunter