Tomasello question

[ChrisNZ]

Not really sure where to post this as there is no right arm swing emergency room (although that'd be nice!).

DG or Coophitter - do you consider maintenance of the flex in the trail kneee a big part of Tom's method? I've been struggling with pulls a bit recently, and have been thinking its either from cocking the right wrist, going out at the ball ('OUT AT THE BALL!') before I go down, or (most likely) an overactive body. Today, after some experimentation, I found a focus on right knee flex really helped me slow my body rotation and stay on my right side longer in the downswing - also good extension in follow through - straighter shots and better contact.

My tendency has always to get a bit standard knee actionish - a straigtening right knee in the backswing. Is a focus on more of an anchored right knee a good way to go for a Tomasello style swing?

Thanks,
Chris

[Delaware Golf]

Not really sure where to post this as there is no right arm swing emergency room (although that'd be nice!).

DG or Coophitter - do you consider maintenance of the flex in the trail kneee a big part of Tom's method? I've been struggling with pulls a bit recently, and have been thinking its either from cocking the right wrist, going out at the ball ('OUT AT THE BALL!') before I go down, or (most likely) an overactive body. Today, after some experimentation, I found a focus on right knee flex really helped me slow my body rotation and stay on my right side longer in the downswing - also good extension in follow through - straighter shots and better contact.

My tendency has always to get a bit standard knee actionish - a straigtening right knee in the backswing. Is a focus on more of an anchored right knee a good way to go for a Tomasello style swing?

Thanks,
Chris

Yes, the anchored right knee is important but it helps one from bobbing (3-F-7-C), not sure if it prevents one from hooking the ball. When I hook (not often) the ball, it's either from tense/fatigued left arm muscles or I'm concentrating too much down (from the top) and not down and out (see 1-L #13 and 14). Checkout Tomasello's number 2 video from the "Letter Series"...Tommy talks about making a down and out move from the top. I suggest watching all of the Tomasello videos and writing down all of the drills that Tommy demonstrates and incorporate them into your practice routine. They work!!!

DG

[Yoda]

Today, after some experimentation, I found a focus on right knee flex really helped me slow my body rotation and stay on my right side longer in the downswing - also good extension in follow through - straighter shots and better contact.

My tendency has always to get a bit standard knee actionish - a straigtening right knee in the backswing. Is a focus on more of an anchored right knee a good way to go...

Through the centuries, most Golfers have straightened their Right Knee during the Backstroke and their Left Knee through the Ball. For this reason, Homer Kelley defined the procedure as Standard Knee Action (10-16-A). No less than Bobby Jones and Sam Snead demonstrated that it is highly effective.

Nevertheless, Homer designated Right Anchor (10-16-C) as the Stroke Pattern Variation in both 12-1-0 (Hitting) and 12-2-0 (Swinging). He chose the term 'Anchor' because, when the Golfer keeps the Right Knee Bent, "it feels and acts like the body has a solid anchor to the ground" (7-16). Personally, I have always used Right Anchor and found Homer's words both comforting and compelling. Beyond that, I was delighted to find that I had nothing to change as I adopted the Hitting and Swinging Stroke Pattern Components as listed.

Still, Homer Kelley would have been the last to mandate that a player use Right Anchor instead of Standard. I remember a conversation we had regarding Loading Action:

Young Yoda: Why do you recommend Snap Loading for Swingers?

Homer: I don't recommend anything.

Young Yoda: But it's in the Stroke Patterns...

Homer: I couldn't put all three in there!



Still, and this is 'just me'...

I don't think you would find many Standard Actions on a BOSU Ball.

[ChrisNZ]

Thanks for your replies,

DG - I think you may be right about bobbing. The problem with this is returning the head from the bob which can obviously cause all kinds of clubhead disruptions.

Yoda - today could really appreciate Homer's designation of the anchor - it is like being anchored to the ground. Coophitter mentioned in another thread that the Tomasello right forearm uncocking would cause a sitdown position as the body responded to the down of the club, and Brian, on one of his recent video shorts mentioned not overcommitting the right leg too early in the downswing. I think focusing on the right knee anchor helped me get closer to capturing these feels (versus a more typical spinout for me!)

Chris

[coophitter]

Chris - Tomasello told me that the body does absolutely nothing purposefully to initiate the downswing. Just toss the club straight down into the ground with the right forearm. This is nothing new. Harry Vardon said the following things. 1)"The club, it will be noticed has been started on the downtrack without any alteration of the pose of the body." (2)"The club should start down without the body turning." (3)"The downswing starts by a dropping of the elbows. What you term a 'pull down' but even more so where a downswing follows a movement begun by a purely body action, such as full shifting of weight from right to left before the club gets under way, would surely be putting the cart before the horse. The clubs and arms must lead on the downswing, just as they should on the upswing. Not the hips and body first, which means shifting the weight as a preliminary to body turning, as so many teach. That would be good advice to follow if you wanted to cultivate body sway; but it is body action of every sort that you want to keep to a minimum." (4)"There may be the slightest shifting to the left, or bracing movement on starting down, but it should be very slight indeed." (5)"The main function of the body is to furnish leverage, but not power; of the wrists, a connection only, like a universal joint, between between the club and the golfer.They should not be used for propulsion." (6) "If I simply swing, largely with the arms and club,letting all the effort be the natural result of the swing, and not the thing that produced it, taking care that the club is leading all the way through and not the body or any part of it, the ball will be struck with the finest degree of delicacy but with enough percussion at the clubhead to whisk it away two hundred and fifty yards or more."

I think the bracing movement Vardon spoke of is an instinctive move to slow down and stop the backswing pivot so the right arm can can fire thereafter against the brace. So the little sit or hip slide we often talk about is actually a braking action to stop the backswing and give you some ground force to hit against. Think about Vardon for a second. Joe Norwood assisted Vardon on one of Vardon's American tours and studied his method assiduously. Tommy Armour studied Vardon assiduously. John Jacobs was also a convert, and Butch Harmon has all of his instructors read Jacobs' book as their required textbook. Harmon basically taught Woods to swing like Vardon. Keep that right heel down.

So if using a right anchor on the backswing helps you eliminate body muscling of any sort to start the downswing then do it. And keep asking Delaware about it, He knows his stuff. In fact, The right humerus probably initiates the right arm swing more so than the triceps, rendering right forearm action as more passive than Kelley or Tomasello thought during normal Hitting or "right arm swinging" strokes. I believe Delaware mentioned something like this in one of his posts.

Also consider the following quote from Frank Hannigan's foreword to A.W. Tillinghast's book, "Reminiscences on the Links": In Tillinghast, we have a link between the first national championship of the mid 1890's right on up to the era of Nelson, Hogan, and Snead. He both saw and played with almost all the greats. So it is fascinating that, when asked to pick his own all time Top Ten, the name at the top is Harry Vardon, not Bobby Jones, his number two pick. Vardon seems to us a relic, someone whose primary contribution was to bring 'rhythm' to the swing. But we somehow don't imagine Vardon being in the same league as a player whose moving images are preserved on film beginning with Jones. But Tillie says this, "Without hesitation, I name the great Harry Vardon as the peer of all golfers who ever lived. He was so close to absolute perfection, save for the occasional stabbing of his putts, that his monotonous immaculate stroking made the game absurdly simple."

We are asymetrical beings. If you are right arm dominant, get it ready and use it without delay. I don't think you'll inflame it with tendonitis, as some would say, unless you think you need to use it like a baseball pitcher. Pitchers don't have a club and must hurl their dominant arm much much faster than golfers do to create adequate velocity. Toss the arm lightly, smoothly and swiftly in both directions and let it lead throughout. There is nothing deliberate, slow, or heavy about it. Conduct a symphony with it, don't drag it around like a wet mop!

[EdZ]

Vardon seems to us a relic, someone whose primary contribution was to bring 'rhythm' to the swing. ...........his monotonous immaculate stroking made the game absurdly simple."

Given the difficulties most people have obtaining rhythm, I'd say that is quite a legacy. A very important thing, to get a 'grip' on Rhythm.

[ChrisNZ]

Thanks for your expertise Coop. I'm working daily on my right arm swing (or whatever it is!) at the moment, and it is feeling very good. I love the simplicity of this move. For me the hard part is learning not-to-do with the body. I'm pretty much self-taught and my first training manual was Swing Like a Pro - slide and turn the hips to initiate the downswing. This really didn't work for me and now I have to really work on stopping crazy hip and shoulder actions in my downswing! One of the(many) things I like about the Tomasello motion, is you seem to hit pretty good body positions even though its all reactive to the right arm movement.

The right humerus probably initiates the right arm swing more so than the triceps, rendering right forearm action as more passive than Kelley or Tomasello thought during normal Hitting or "right arm swinging" strokes.

This is instructive for me. Instinctively the right arm motion on longer shots at least, seems to want to start from the right shoulder, followed pretty quickly by an unbending of the right elbow (but this moevement can be quite passive). Its good to know this is OK.

Chris

[Delaware Golf]

Interesting note from Tomasello's July 1991 interview in Golf Illustrated....

"Detrators--and there have been many--condemn the system as hopelessly complex and impossible to put into practical use (comments about TGM). A.J Tomasello is one of the very few (that includes Yoda )who have been able to break down this intimidating array of laws into a few basic movements that, far from being impossilbe, can leave a student asking "Can the golf swing really be this simple?....

Then the interview concludes:

GI: How long before a student makes significant improvement?

Tomasello: I can give you documented examples of golfers with no previous record of success who started winning tournaments at various levels almost immediately. But the learning is never ending. The amount of time and dedication the golfer puts in determines how far he or she can go.

A comment from a Tomasello student...

"I started working with Tom Tomasello on The Golfing Machine in March 1984. At the time I was in danger of losing my tour card. I finished the year qualifying in 15 of the last 17 events and climbed from 250 to 35 on the Money list".

Jodie Mudd PGA TOUR

Sounds like this stuff works...

Coophitter,

I feel the right tricep in the right arm swing and the left arm swing is passive...it (right triceps) reacts to the triggering action of the right forearm (in a right arm accelerated stroke)...the Magic of the Right Forearm. I do not think about the right triceps at ALL, they just supply muscle power on their own just like they would in a momentum transfer swing. I believe that's why Tomasello used this approach...it has the advantage of using the dominant arm but it also produces accurate shots like the momentum transfer swing. Power and Accuracy....what more do you want.....one Burbon, one Scotch, one Beer, maybe....or maybe just a Bud Light!!!!! To GO....no standing at the bar, we've got golf shots to hitttttttttt.........

DG

[ChangeMySwing]

I've been working on this 'right-hand' swing as well; it is the truth. My iron shots are so crisp that the sound of impact gives me a headache.

[lagster]

I've been working on this 'right-hand' swing as well; it is the truth. My iron shots are so crisp that the sound of impact gives me a headache.

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The Tomasello Procedure does work. I had a very different FEELING or SENSATION of a golf stroke when using IT. At first IT may seem to go against what you have been previously taught, so IT may be difficult to let yourself go with the procedure.

IT IS MORE OF A BODY RESPONSE PROCEDURE.

If you are having fun and playing well using this procedure... well that is what golf is about.