Chris,
I see your issue, I'm sure you've been praying for someone to understand your analysis.
The "left wrist on-plane" is a very general term- as I've seen it used. As you correctly determined- say at the top of a typical golf swing- a flat left wrist is certainly not on plane, if it is flat- then it's on the same plane as the left arm- which is not normally on plane- except with a zero #3 accumulator.
Could the left wrist be precisely on plane somewhere during the backstroke or downstroke- for example where the left arm is parallel to the ground on the backstroke or downstroke? - it could but I really wouldn't think it would be worth noting.
Chris,
I see your issue, I'm sure you've been praying for someone to understand your analysis .
The "left wrist on-plane" is a very general term- as I've seen it used. As you correctly determined- say at the top of a typical golf swing- a flat left wrist is certainly not on plane if it is flat- then it's on the same plane as the left arm- which is not on plane.
Could the left wrist be precisely on plane somewhere during the backstroke or downstroke- it could but I really wouldn't think it would be worth noting.
This is why I think Left Hand Turned facing toward the plane is different to Left Hand Turned On Plane. Like Chris mentioned, if the Left Palm was turned directly On Plane with a Flat Left Wrist, the the Left Arm would also be On Plane, but looking at photos of Diane and touring pros, it never is!
Yoda said: "When Turned...the left palm faces directly toward that [selected] Plane."
I believe this can be misleading if you're not careful given my comments above. Hence my question at the beginning of this thread about how much exactly should the Left Wrist be Turned. Now coming to think about it, I don't think it's an important question -- as long as the Left Wrist is Turned so that it's generally facing toward the Plane -- it's fine!
I wonder what Yoda thinks .
[I have edited my post above after this insight]
__________________
tongzilla
Last edited by tongzilla : 10-13-2005 at 06:38 PM.
Please note that I edited my post after Tongzilla quoted it- so refer to my original post. Although, the essential nature of the post is intact- I just made it a little more specific and clear.
This is why I think Left Hand Turned facing toward the plane is different to Left Hand Turned On Plane. Like Chris mentioned, if the Left Palm was turned directly On Plane with a Flat Left Wrist, the the Left Arm would also be On Plane, but looking at photos of Diane and touring pros, it never is!
Yoda said: "When Turned...the left palm faces directly toward that [selected] Plane."
I believe this can be misleading if you're not careful given my comments above. Hence my question at the beginning of this thread about how much exactly should the Left Wrist be Turned. Now coming to think about it, I don't think it's an important question -- as long as the Left Wrist is Turned so that it's generally facing toward the Plane -- it's fine!
I wonder what Yoda thinks .
For the Left Wrist to Cock and for the Club to remain On Plane, the palm of the Left Hand must On Plane.
For the Left Wrist to Cock and for the Club to remain On Plane, the palm of the Left Hand must On Plane.
That reiterates my original problem! My understanding of the left arm wedge was this: Take a dowel, lie your whole left arm on a table with the palm facing down, hold the dowel in your left hand. By cocking and uncocking the left wrist you can move the dowel without it leaving the table - it's on plane, but if you bend the wrist then the dowel lifts off the table - off plane - broken flying wedge. But because the left arm is not on plane in the golf swing, but the left palm is, mustn't the wedge be broken??? In an actual swing isn't it akin to having the palm on the table, but the left arm at an angle to the table, and then isn't the left wrist bent slightly?
Makes me think of the Hogan five lessons pics illustrating pronation and supination, with a cup in the wrist on the way down, presumably prior to rolling at which point the left wrist flattens.
That reiterates my original problem! My understanding of the left arm wedge was this: Take a dowel, lie your whole left arm on a table with the palm facing down, hold the dowel in your left hand. By cocking and uncocking the left wrist you can move the dowel without it leaving the table - it's on plane, but if you bend the wrist then the dowel lifts off the table - off plane - broken flying wedge. But because the left arm is not on plane in the golf swing, but the left palm is, mustn't the wedge be broken??? In an actual swing isn't it akin to having the palm on the table, but the left arm at an angle to the table, and then isn't the left wrist bent slightly?
The Left Arm lies always in the Vertical Plane of the Left Wristcock -- the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. That Left Wristcock Motion may or may not be on the Angled Plane of the Stroke.
Typically, assuming a #3 Accumulator Angle and Start Up and Release Swivels, the Left Arm is On Plane from the end of Start Up until the beginning of the Release. During Start Up and Release, the Clubhead appears to move in an Arc 'around and outside the Hands' when related to the Left Arm. Where there is no #3 Angle (6-B-3-B), there is theoretically a Left Shoulder Plane, and the Left Arm is on that Plane throughout.
Interestingly, again assuming the existence of a #3 Accumulator Angle, the Right Forearm is On Plane when the Left Arm is not, that is, during Start Up and Release.
The Left Arm lies always in the Vertical Plane of the Left Wristcock -- the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. That Left Wristcock Motion may or may not be on the Angled Plane of the Stroke.
Typically, assuming a #3 Accumulator Angle and Start Up and Release Swivels, the Left Arm is On Plane from the end of Start Up until the beginning of the Release. During Start Up and Release, the Clubhead appears to move in an Arc 'around and outside the Hands' when related to the Left Arm. Where there is no #3 Angle (6-B-3-B), there is theoretically a Left Shoulder Plane, and the Left Arm is on that Plane throughout.
Interestingly, again assuming the existence of a #3 Accumulator Angle, the Right Forearm is On Plane when the Left Arm is not, that is, during Start Up and Release.
And vice versa.
Interesting is the word! Thanks Lynn. I always thought that according to the book the left arm was never on plane, and that extensor action was therefore always below plane. It really helps to have you identify the points where the left arm is on plane - it was kind of what I thought - during the roll portion of the release the left arm actually kind of rolls under and out of the way (as opposed to the right arm going out around the left arm) - right?
Even so, I still think when you say the left arm is on plane it can still only by more-or-less on plane - not exactly on plane. But I won't push it!
It really helps to have you identify the points where the left arm is on plane - it was kind of what I thought - during the roll portion of the release the left arm actually kind of rolls under and out of the way (as opposed to the right arm going out around the left arm) - right?
Even so, I still think when you say the left arm is on plane it can still only by more-or-less on plane - not exactly on plane. But I won't push it!
Again, the Left Arm is On Plane when the Left Arm Flying Wedge is On Plane. Not before (during Address and Start Up) and not after (during Release and Impact).
Chris,
I see your issue, I'm sure you've been praying for someone to understand your analysis.
The "left wrist on-plane" is a very general term- as I've seen it used. As you correctly determined- say at the top of a typical golf swing- a flat left wrist is certainly not on plane, if it is flat- then it's on the same plane as the left arm- which is not normally on plane- except with a zero #3 accumulator.
Could the left wrist be precisely on plane somewhere during the backstroke or downstroke- for example where the left arm is parallel to the ground on the backstroke or downstroke? - it could but I really wouldn't think it would be worth noting.
Exactly, thanks for understanding Mike O! (Although I wasn't praying, that was just me cocking my left wrist up and down to try and figure this out!)
I guess I'm still a little unsure how the club can be on plane while one still has a flat left wrist though, unless the club leaves the left hand at an angle. That is, if you hold the club up in front of you in your left hand the club will need to angle towards your right. Hey, maybe that's why we turn the wrist?! The geometry of this is killing me!
Related question (I think) - is a perfectly sequenced release (on plane) impossible, because at the top the left wrist is not on plane. Do you need some simultaneous roll to ensure the wrist uncocking is on plane?
Actually this refers to the second part of your quote. Surely on the downstroke it is essential that the left wrist be on plane if you are purely uncocking in a sequenced release (so it would be worth noting). But then as I said, this may be impossible (pure uncocking).
Again, the Left Arm is On Plane when the Left Arm Flying Wedge is On Plane. Not before (during Address and Start Up) and not after (during Release and Impact).
In other words, the Left Arm or Left Arm Flying Wedge should theoretically be Turned On Plane between the Startup Swivel and Release Swivel.
Originally Posted by Mike O
Could the left wrist be precisely on plane somewhere during the backstroke or downstroke- for example where the left arm is parallel to the ground on the backstroke or downstroke? - it could but I really wouldn't think it would be worth noting.
I looked at a few down-the-line photos of various pros and noticed that most time, their Left Palm (and hence the Left Arm) is rarely turned directly On Plane between the Startup and Release Swivels. But it's still Turned, just not exactly On Plane, as it theoretically should do.
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