This is why I think Left Hand Turned facing toward the plane is different to Left Hand Turned On Plane. Like Chris mentioned, if the Left Palm was turned directly On Plane with a Flat Left Wrist, the the Left Arm would also be On Plane, but looking at photos of Diane and touring pros, it never is!
Yoda said: "When Turned...the left palm faces directly toward that [selected] Plane."
I believe this can be misleading if you're not careful given my comments above. Hence my question at the beginning of this thread about how much exactly should the Left Wrist be Turned. Now coming to think about it, I don't think it's an important question -- as long as the Left Wrist is Turned so that it's generally facing toward the Plane -- it's fine!
I wonder what Yoda thinks .
For the Left Wrist to Cock and for the Club to remain On Plane, the palm of the Left Hand must On Plane.
For the Left Wrist to Cock and for the Club to remain On Plane, the palm of the Left Hand must On Plane.
That reiterates my original problem! My understanding of the left arm wedge was this: Take a dowel, lie your whole left arm on a table with the palm facing down, hold the dowel in your left hand. By cocking and uncocking the left wrist you can move the dowel without it leaving the table - it's on plane, but if you bend the wrist then the dowel lifts off the table - off plane - broken flying wedge. But because the left arm is not on plane in the golf swing, but the left palm is, mustn't the wedge be broken??? In an actual swing isn't it akin to having the palm on the table, but the left arm at an angle to the table, and then isn't the left wrist bent slightly?
Makes me think of the Hogan five lessons pics illustrating pronation and supination, with a cup in the wrist on the way down, presumably prior to rolling at which point the left wrist flattens.
The explanations and photos are all there in 10-18. Just remember that photos 10-18-C and 10-18-D should be reversed.
Also, study the "Useful Combinations" (photos 5-A/B/C/D).
As I look at 5-C-2 (the Right Wrist Conditions complementing the Left Wrist's Flat, Cocked and Turned Conditions) I am taken back 24 years. When I began my study of The Golfing Machine® in 1979, the book's complementing Right Wrist Conditions were identical to those of the Left, i.e., Flat, Turned and Cocked. By 1981, I had come to understand the Right Forearm Flying Wedge, and clearly, a Cocked Right Wrist destroys that structure. Plus, the photo did not seem to show the Wrist as Cocked. So, I telephoned Homer -- by this time he had gotten used to these calls! -- and asked about it. After a brief pause, he answered, "You're right. It should be Level, not Cocked."
Yes Mr. Yoda... those pictures are in the book. I was talking about some NEW pictures if possible, that also show the CLUBFACE. 10-18-A and 10-18-D(which should be C), for example, look about the same to me.
Also, an explanation of RIGHT FOREARM FANNING, as differentiated from LEFT WRIST TURNING would be good. I remember an excellent post you did some time ago explaning their separate identities. I believe you described how Miller Barber actually FANNED on the DOWNSWING.
That reiterates my original problem! My understanding of the left arm wedge was this: Take a dowel, lie your whole left arm on a table with the palm facing down, hold the dowel in your left hand. By cocking and uncocking the left wrist you can move the dowel without it leaving the table - it's on plane, but if you bend the wrist then the dowel lifts off the table - off plane - broken flying wedge. But because the left arm is not on plane in the golf swing, but the left palm is, mustn't the wedge be broken??? In an actual swing isn't it akin to having the palm on the table, but the left arm at an angle to the table, and then isn't the left wrist bent slightly?
The Left Arm lies always in the Vertical Plane of the Left Wristcock -- the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. That Left Wristcock Motion may or may not be on the Angled Plane of the Stroke.
Typically, assuming a #3 Accumulator Angle and Start Up and Release Swivels, the Left Arm is On Plane from the end of Start Up until the beginning of the Release. During Start Up and Release, the Clubhead appears to move in an Arc 'around and outside the Hands' when related to the Left Arm. Where there is no #3 Angle (6-B-3-B), there is theoretically a Left Shoulder Plane, and the Left Arm is on that Plane throughout.
Interestingly, again assuming the existence of a #3 Accumulator Angle, the Right Forearm is On Plane when the Left Arm is not, that is, during Start Up and Release.
The Left Arm lies always in the Vertical Plane of the Left Wristcock -- the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge. That Left Wristcock Motion may or may not be on the Angled Plane of the Stroke.
Typically, assuming a #3 Accumulator Angle and Start Up and Release Swivels, the Left Arm is On Plane from the end of Start Up until the beginning of the Release. During Start Up and Release, the Clubhead appears to move in an Arc 'around and outside the Hands' when related to the Left Arm. Where there is no #3 Angle (6-B-3-B), there is theoretically a Left Shoulder Plane, and the Left Arm is on that Plane throughout.
Interestingly, again assuming the existence of a #3 Accumulator Angle, the Right Forearm is On Plane when the Left Arm is not, that is, during Start Up and Release.
And vice versa.
Interesting is the word! Thanks Lynn. I always thought that according to the book the left arm was never on plane, and that extensor action was therefore always below plane. It really helps to have you identify the points where the left arm is on plane - it was kind of what I thought - during the roll portion of the release the left arm actually kind of rolls under and out of the way (as opposed to the right arm going out around the left arm) - right?
Even so, I still think when you say the left arm is on plane it can still only by more-or-less on plane - not exactly on plane. But I won't push it!
It really helps to have you identify the points where the left arm is on plane - it was kind of what I thought - during the roll portion of the release the left arm actually kind of rolls under and out of the way (as opposed to the right arm going out around the left arm) - right?
Even so, I still think when you say the left arm is on plane it can still only by more-or-less on plane - not exactly on plane. But I won't push it!
Again, the Left Arm is On Plane when the Left Arm Flying Wedge is On Plane. Not before (during Address and Start Up) and not after (during Release and Impact).
Again, the Left Arm is On Plane when the Left Arm Flying Wedge is On Plane. Not before (during Address and Start Up) and not after (during Release and Impact).
In other words, the Left Arm or Left Arm Flying Wedge should theoretically be Turned On Plane between the Startup Swivel and Release Swivel.
Originally Posted by Mike O
Could the left wrist be precisely on plane somewhere during the backstroke or downstroke- for example where the left arm is parallel to the ground on the backstroke or downstroke? - it could but I really wouldn't think it would be worth noting.
I looked at a few down-the-line photos of various pros and noticed that most time, their Left Palm (and hence the Left Arm) is rarely turned directly On Plane between the Startup and Release Swivels. But it's still Turned, just not exactly On Plane, as it theoretically should do.
I've slept on this now, read the book, meditated on it etc, and here is what I think the solution to this problem is:
The plane of the the left wrist cock is not in the plane of the left palm -
or:
a cocked left wrist is not at a 90 degree angle to a bent left wrist.
Firstly, look at pictures in the book - say 10-6-B #2. The left arm is not in any way on plane, but the left palm is. Per 7-2, the back of he flat left wrist faces down the angle of approach at impact fix - therefore essentially the back of the left hand faces out towards right field (or in my country out towards long off or cover). Now, for simplicities sake, imagine the left arm at low point, where it is perpendicular to the plane line. I think wrist cock at this point would also be perpendicular to the plane line - but because the left wrist/palm faces somewhat to right field this won't be in the plane of the left palm.
This kind of wrist cock gives the look you see in Lynn's videos (I think), and in the pics in the book (e.g. 10-6-B #2), where the left wrist seems to cup a bit at the top (or in fact, cup a bit as the wrist cocks). Basically, it creates an angle which allows the left palm to be on plane while the left arm is not. Note that when you uncock in this sort of plane however, that the left wrist is flat.
The on-plane motion of the clubshaft directed by the lag really controls what motions will be made- the uncocking flat left wrist and any roll are really subservient to the on-plane motion. I could go into further detail regarding the flat uncocking left wrist, but I think it's pretty obvious if we start looking at swing sequences that the left arm flying wedge is never on the swing plane. However, if you've thought before that the left wrist would need to stay flat and on-plane for any uncocking to create an on-plane motion of the clubshaft then your're brain's going to scramble for a while- dealing with a different concept.
The easiest solution for a contrary opinion would be to put up or point out swing sequences where the left arm flying wedge is on-plane as you described. After all, if the left arm flying wedge is on-plane then the left shoulder would be on-plane. A
The easiest solution for a contrary opinion would be to put up or point out swing sequences where the left arm flying wedge is on-plane as you described. After all, if the left arm flying wedge is on-plane then the left shoulder would be on-plane. A
.
Linear Mode
