Aligning the Clubface

[HungryBear]

My added comments and where we still disagree (no big deal) would be that you don't think Homer meant #1 and I do.

I will explain below.

Further - I gather from your comments that you are not a fan of #1 in any practical manner - and I agree with that. Didn't really follow your "hold with #1 or hold with #2 comment" but I'm guessing that's not a big deal.

My communication error- Hold with means Agree with or stand with-

I guess if you had the interest I'd be interested in having you elaborate on your thoughts in regards to your comment above "although he did some "experiments" that would trap U into thinking that way." However, if you don't have an interest - no obligation to reply.

See below
Thanks,
Mike

2-F - Read it all with care.
The swing plane is 2 dimensional
Use the COG - ( HK "sweet spot" plane) and it lies FLAT on the 2-F plane.

The club can not be rotated (rolled) on the plane without an force [That is] NOT ON THAT PLANE. CF is only on that plane.
The force which does roll the club must control the roll PRECISELY. that is not only start but stop the roll in a precision alignment.
That force- as it is needed IS and comes from THE FLAT LEFT HAND.
CF Does nothing to the club but does allign the assembly via the wedge, rhythm, throwout and THE FLAT LEFT HAND.
#1 - NO, #2 - YES

HK experiment- HK hung a club head on a string and swung it around and found the face alignment he set out to demonstrate.
The problem is HK experiment was not a 2-F plane. HK demonstration was on a cone shaped plane. That made the plane 3 dimensional. So the club head orients itself because of the conical plane. (gravity becomes a force)

Here is an experiment:
Take a club- wedge is ok- driver is ok - (dont use a putter they are screwd up)
Put a tee in the grip and suspend the club by the tee to a Hook with a thin string ( heavy thread will do)
Notice the club will hang and maybe rotate back and forth as it will.
Now swing the club as a pendulum. Notice the clubface still just wanders around.
Because it is a pendulum a pattern may be detected but that is due to an on plane "effect" because it is a pendulum.
Spin the club to wind up the string. The hanging club will unwind the string. move it as a pendulum and it will still continue to unwind.
There is neither much force and no control just because the club is moveing on a plane.
[the club would act the same on any 2 dimensional plane. - ie. if it made a complete loop or if the plane was angled but

I am adding an element to the experiment:
If you start the club swinging in a conical orbit the clubface will perform as HK's did.

Therefore - clubface alignment is "flat left hand" in whatever form the golfer has learned to apply it.

#2 - Manipulation- is imperative.

HB

[Bumpy]

Mike O.,

Are the following posts by Yoda and Tongzilla consistent with your definition of Manipulated Hands? Unfortunately, there was no response to Tong's post and the thread died. If they are not consistent and/or correct will you elaborate?

__________________________________________________ _______

Hand Manipulation is accomplished at Impact Fix with the Hands Location established per 7-8 and with the Clubface aligned per 2-J-1. The Feel of the selected Stroke Pattern (Total Motion) is then rehearsed in the Adjusted Address Routine of 3-F-5 -- Practice Swing, Waggle and Forward Press.

So, manipulated hands swinger is not about manipulating your hands during the swing. It refers to manipulating the clubface at impact fix before taking the grip, and then swinging as you would normally. [EDIT: and adjusting Aiming Point if you want.] Correct?

The bad thing about being a true swinger is because an exact ball location is needed to produce a straighaway flight. Correct?

However, Yoda says there is no downside to manipulated hands swinging. Well, IMO, all that has happened is instead of being precise about ball location, the focus has shifted on the degree of clubface manipulation needed at impact fix to produce a straighaway flight. So the only difference is that being a true swinger, you use ball location to produce straightaway flight, while a manipulated hands swinger uses clubface adjustment before making the swing to produce straightaway flight.

__________________________________________________ _________

Bumpy

[Mike O]

[quote=Bumpy;93598]Mike O.,

Are the following posts by Yoda and Tongzilla consistent with your definition of Manipulated Hands? Unfortunately, there was no response to Tong's post and the thread died. If they are not consistent and/or correct will you elaborate?

__________________________________________________ _______

So, manipulated hands swinger is not about manipulating your hands during the swing. It refers to manipulating the clubface at impact fix before taking the grip, and then swinging as you would normally. [EDIT: and adjusting Aiming Point if you want.] Correct?

The bad thing about being a true swinger is because an exact ball location is needed to produce a straighaway flight. Correct?

However, Yoda says there is no downside to manipulated hands swinging. Well, IMO, all that has happened is instead of being precise about ball location, the focus has shifted on the degree of clubface manipulation needed at impact fix to produce a straighaway flight. So the only difference is that being a true swinger, you use ball location to produce straightaway flight, while a manipulated hands swinger uses clubface adjustment before making the swing to produce straightaway flight.
__________________________________________________ _________

Bumpy

I like your last paragraph except that in a hand manipulated swing - you would not only set up with a flat and vertical left wrist at impact fix but you need to get back to that flat and vertical left wrist at impact (or whatever grip type you are using) - via whatever hinge action/motion you are planning for - so there's an awareness/control of how you arrive at impact(however subtle), and your planning for that as you address the ball or as Yoda says rehearsing.
See the Glossary Quote below

FLAT AND VERTICAL FLAT LEFT WRIST Example – Left hand Karate Chop.
Mechanical – The Paddlewheel blade relationships as vertical to its axis of rotation and vertical to its plane of rotation.
Golf – Positioning the Left Wrist to be vertical to its Left Shoulder Axis and to its Associated Plane during Impact.

The manipulated swinger identifies a certain impact lead hand location and condition (impact fix)Note: doesn't need to start the swing there - and returns to that hand location. Two aspects - set-up and impact. Much like most the book in regards to certain concepts - he doesn't differentiate items very well - expects you to understand it - in that the definition above - it would be for a manipulated swinger or hitter - not a True Swinger. There's a reason for that - the True Swinger is more of just a side note for him, an observation of a possibility more than anything.

The True swinger as you note is just concerned about ball location in relation to the rotating pivot - further back of straight away ball location - fades, further forward draws. Doesn't matter what grip is taken because CF will automatically align the clubface. That's the theory.

Tong's quote is correct in that you are not manipulating your hands in funky ways during the swing - but incorrect in that you are in whatever subtle way - making sure you arrive at impact in a certain way with your lead hand and your overall sense of the clubface is something that would have part of your awareness no matter how subtle (you don't get carried away with it to an extreme). The True swinger wouldn't need to worry about clubface or lead hand position.

Not an easy thing to differentiate because we are talking about your mind's area of focus, whether subtle or ingrained. More interesting theory than practical application IMO.

[Mike O]

HB,
Feedback later regarding your post.

[Daryl]

[quote=Mike O;93600]

Mike O.,

......
Tong's quote is correct in that you are not manipulating your hands in funky ways during the swing - but incorrect in that you are in whatever subtle way - making sure you arrive at impact in a certain way with your lead hand and your overall sense of the clubface is something that would have part of your awareness no matter how subtle (you don't get carried away with it to an extreme). The True swinger wouldn't need to worry about clubface or lead hand position.

Not an easy thing to differentiate because we are talking about your mind's area of focus, whether subtle or ingrained. More interesting theory than practical application IMO.

The difference leads to very important application.

When the ball is located further aft of Low Point, the Geometry of the Circle dictates that the Ball must also - move in toward the feet. That creates a "New" Angle of Approach. Re-alining the Clubface square to the new Angle of Approach for Impact, the "Steeper" Plane Angle increases the Closing Ratio of the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. This can/will sustain the "Line of Compression" and create Straight-Away Flight using the Identical Low Point of the "Normal" (for any particular club) setup. Playing the Ball Back leads to much deeper divots.

So... a Hands Manipulated Swinger will have the Hands Ahead at Impact as dictated by the Right Forearm Angle of Approach.

A "True Swinger" utilizes the same Angle of Approach engineered into the Hook-Face of any Club and forgoes Manipulating the Clubface at Setup. Although Homer said that "True Swingers" can only use one location for - straight away flight - he assumes everyone knows that a True Swinger can hit Straight Shots from various Ball Locations by altering the Plane and Stance Lines thus causing "Straight Pushes" and "Straight Pulls".

So a True Swinger will not alter the geometry of the Golf Club but he will relocate "Low-Point" and his divot depth will always be the same. Homer is correct (as always), not many, if anyone uses this strategy. But not because they can't, but because it doesn't offer the depth of options needed to overcome playing conditions such as "Ball below the Feet" or hitting a Straight Shot from a "Downhill Lie" or hitting from 6" rough in the US Open.

So vary the "Low Point" or "re-align the Club". "True" vs. "Manipulated". In other words, "change your Alignment" or "Change the Clubs Alignment". It's all about choices. HK says the Golf Swing has many choices.

(all of this is readily explained and demonstrated in my video series - soon to be released)

[innercityteacher]

I did not know this and it explains my longest drives of +/- 300 yards! Y'all are beasts!

LMAO!

[HungryBear]

[quote=Daryl;93615]

The difference leads to very important application.

When the ball is located further aft of Low Point, the Geometry of the Circle dictates that the Ball must also - move in toward the feet. That creates a "New" Angle of Approach. Re-alining the Clubface square to the new Angle of Approach for Impact, the "Steeper" Plane Angle increases the Closing Ratio of the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. This can/will sustain the "Line of Compression" and create Straight-Away Flight using the Identical Low Point of the "Normal" (for any particular club) setup. Playing the Ball Back leads to much deeper divots.

So... a Hands Manipulated Swinger will have the Hands Ahead at Impact as dictated by the Right Forearm Angle of Approach.

A "True Swinger" utilizes the same Angle of Approach engineered into the Hook-Face of any Club and forgoes Manipulating the Clubface at Setup. Although Homer said that "True Swingers" can only use one location for - straight away flight - he assumes everyone knows that a True Swinger can hit Straight Shots from various Ball Locations by altering the Plane and Stance Lines thus causing "Straight Pushes" and "Straight Pulls".

So a True Swinger will not alter the geometry of the Golf Club but he will relocate "Low-Point" and his divot depth will always be the same. Homer is correct (as always), not many, if anyone uses this strategy. But not because they can't, but because it doesn't offer the depth of options needed to overcome playing conditions such as "Ball below the Feet" or hitting a Straight Shot from a "Downhill Lie" or hitting from 6" rough in the US Open.

So vary the "Low Point" or "Manipulate the Hands". It's all about choices. HK says the Golf Swing has many choices.

(all of this is readily explained and demonstrated in my video series - soon to be released)

I will be pulling the discussion further from the thread but now I am confused.

I thought I understood 7-2, Yes I do. In that line of thinking I also associate Horizontal hinging with swinging and angled hinging with hitting. any other hinge associations are manipulations. I was under the impression the rest of the geometry was "self correcting" . I guess I need a way to get un-connfused now.

HB

[Mike O]

[quote=Daryl;93615]

The difference leads to very important application.

When the ball is located further aft of Low Point, the Geometry of the Circle dictates that the Ball must also - move in toward the feet. That creates a "New" Angle of Approach. Re-alining the Clubface square to the new Angle of Approach for Impact, the "Steeper" Plane Angle increases the Closing Ratio of the Right Forearm Angle of Approach. This can/will sustain the "Line of Compression" and create Straight-Away Flight using the Identical Low Point of the "Normal" (for any particular club) setup. Playing the Ball Back leads to much deeper divots.

So... a Hands Manipulated Swinger will have the Hands Ahead at Impact as dictated by the Right Forearm Angle of Approach.

A "True Swinger" utilizes the same Angle of Approach engineered into the Hook-Face of any Club and forgoes Manipulating the Clubface at Setup. Although Homer said that "True Swingers" can only use one location for - straight away flight - he assumes everyone knows that a True Swinger can hit Straight Shots from various Ball Locations by altering the Plane and Stance Lines thus causing "Straight Pushes" and "Straight Pulls".

So a True Swinger will not alter the geometry of the Golf Club but he will relocate "Low-Point" and his divot depth will always be the same(for straight shots). Homer is correct (as always), not many, if anyone uses this strategy. But not because they can't, but because it doesn't offer the depth of options needed to overcome playing conditions such as "Ball below the Feet" or hitting a Straight Shot from a "Downhill Lie" or hitting from 6" rough in the US Open.

So vary the "Low Point" or "re-align the Club". "True" vs. "Manipulated". In other words, "change your Alignment" or "Change the Clubs Alignment". It's all about choices. HK says the Golf Swing has many choices.

(all of this is readily explained and demonstrated in my video series - soon to be released)

Juicy stuff Daryl!

Lots of opportunity for clarification and learning here. Your first paragraph - took me a little time to understand it - probably will fly over the heads of many. Specifically, it's a procedure for moving the ball back for the manipulated swinger or hitter and still hit a straight shot with a steeper angle of attack and lower ball flight.

Check what I added in red in your quote above and see if you agree.

Can you define or clarify what you mean in two sections in your post?
A "True Swinger" utilizes the same Angle of Approach engineered into the Hook-Face of any Club and

Although Homer said that "True Swingers" can only use one location for - straight away flight - he assumes everyone knows that a True Swinger can hit Straight Shots from various Ball Locations by altering the Plane and Stance Lines thus causing "Straight Pushes" and "Straight Pulls".

And HB is correct - 7-2 is probably one of the more relevant sections that relates to this thread. HB - As a side note - not sure how you quoted Daryl above but it looks like it was originally posted by me which is unfortunate. I'm assuming you are just using the quote button? Daryl actually has a quote a couple above that where the same thing happened - it was my quote but says originally posted by Bumpy.

[HungryBear]

Daryl, Mike O, O.B.Left
Here is what I need clarified:
As I understand it- HK said swinger uses Horizontal Hinging, Hitters use angled hinging. If the hitter uses other than angled or the swinger uses other than horizontal there is manipulation.
Is that your understanding?

HB

[Daryl]

Daryl, Mike O, O.B.Left
Here is what I need clarified:
As I understand it- HK said swinger uses Horizontal Hinging, Hitters use angled hinging. If the hitter uses other than angled or the swinger uses other than horizontal there is manipulation.
Is that your understanding?

HB

Not necessarily. A Swinger can introduce "Layback" to the Dual Horizontal Hinge by Tracing the Angle of Approach at Impact (See Greg McHatton). Is that Manipulation? no.