I have struggled to reconcile what I think I'm seeing in slow-mo videos/clips of pros and what I believe is good advice on hip movement.
In the vast majority of pro clips, down swing with club shaft parallel to target line, the trail elbow is at the trail hip or a hair in front. Coming into impact, the hips are open. Various Ben Hogan clips show this well. A favorite is Couples - by the time he reaches impact, his hips are very open.
On the other hand, I have read the posting here by Matt and VJ where they caution against hip spinning, use of the dowel-in-the-belt loops to stop the spinning, etc. I have seen Tom Tomasello's video on this site where he clearly shows keeping the trail hip back and swinging through and past the restrained hips (i.e. keeping them closed coming into impact).
I can't believe 'open' or 'closed' hips - as a swing thought - into impact are both correct. What seems to work well for me is the Tomasello approach of keeping the hips closed and driving the trail elbow past the hips which then open up somewhat coming into impact - but the hips are 'following' the trail elbow, not leading or connected ala Hogan.
I've tried to decipher this and remain confused because (1) excellent pro level swings certainly appear as trail elbow riding the trail hip into impact with hips quite open at impact (2) Tomasello and others advise keeping the hips closed and swing 'past' them.
I've tried to decipher this and remain confused because (1) excellent pro level swings certainly appear as trail elbow riding the trail hip into impact with hips quite open at impact (2) Tomasello and others advise keeping the hips closed and swing 'past' them.
Thoughts appreciated.
Well, here's a thought...
There's a difference between a normal pro's address position (Mr. Hogan's, for instance) and that taught by Machine advocates. Pro's have been taught to let their arms hang straight down with no thought of Wedge alignment at address, so put yourself into such a position and try moving to Impact Fix. Don't your hips have to open more than if you'd started in your usual (Machine-like) address position?
I have struggled to reconcile what I think I'm seeing in slow-mo videos/clips of pros and what I believe is good advice on hip movement.
In the vast majority of pro clips, down swing with club shaft parallel to target line, the trail elbow is at the trail hip or a hair in front. Coming into impact, the hips are open. Various Ben Hogan clips show this well. A favorite is Couples - by the time he reaches impact, his hips are very open.
On the other hand, I have read the posting here by Matt and VJ where they caution against hip spinning, use of the dowel-in-the-belt loops to stop the spinning, etc. I have seen Tom Tomasello's video on this site where he clearly shows keeping the trail hip back and swinging through and past the restrained hips (i.e. keeping them closed coming into impact).
I can't believe 'open' or 'closed' hips - as a swing thought - into impact are both correct. What seems to work well for me is the Tomasello approach of keeping the hips closed and driving the trail elbow past the hips which then open up somewhat coming into impact - but the hips are 'following' the trail elbow, not leading or connected ala Hogan.
I've tried to decipher this and remain confused because (1) excellent pro level swings certainly appear as trail elbow riding the trail hip into impact with hips quite open at impact (2) Tomasello and others advise keeping the hips closed and swing 'past' them.
Thoughts appreciated.
In Real Estate it's location, location, location....In TGM it's Interpretation, Interpretation, Interpretation.
If you watch all of Tommy's videos (Australia and Myrtle Beach videos) you will truly understand what Tommy means by keeping the hips back...in the downswing the hips should NOT be held back physically by the GOLFER...the hips should "respond" to the action of the right forearm. For further details on this see Mark Evershed's (former Tomasello student) book "The Golf Solution" and read up on the concept called "quite body".
When I asked Tomasello (October 1993) where in the book does it say to start the downswing with the right forearm. Tommy's response was "7-3" and the Magic of the Right Forearm.
I actually have Tomasello on cassette tape saying he thought Hogan really swung the golf club like the way Tommy taught the swing. Kind of interesting...Tommy referenced the picture of Hogan on the Five Fundamentals by saying Hogan's hips haven't moved much in that picture...by the Christmas holiday I'll try to transcribe Tomasello's comments on this topic, I'll posted it on this thread.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 11-25-2005 at 09:11 PM.
Thnx - I'd welcome that and whatever interpretation you can add.
In his clip at http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...Chapter3BB.wmv Tomasello is pretty clear about hips following the trail elbow. Even though he states they should be kept back, I'm sure the feeling and intent is to make sure the hips follow rather than lead.
I think his major point is the student he is addressing needs to lead with with trail elbow and arms into a hit with the clubhead past his left hip to get a horizontal hinge action with the clubface.
Tomasello is pretty clear that early hip action will turn the shoulders and lead to 'over-the-top' faults.
Ted basically told me the same thing that Tom is advocating in that video. It may not be quite that pronounced in full-speed, but if you want to cure the OTT move, that's the best way to do in my opinion. That move REALLY helps you get to the inside-aft section of the ball.
I have struggled to reconcile what I think I'm seeing in slow-mo videos/clips of pros and what I believe is good advice on hip movement.
In the vast majority of pro clips, down swing with club shaft parallel to target line, the trail elbow is at the trail hip or a hair in front. Coming into impact, the hips are open. Various Ben Hogan clips show this well. A favorite is Couples - by the time he reaches impact, his hips are very open.
Hi JP!
I agree - and also have noticed that pro's generally have their hips open or square at impact. Couples - open. Els - open. Tiger - open. Hogan - open. Not bad company!!!
Originally Posted by jp99
On the other hand, I have read the posting here by Matt and VJ where they caution against hip spinning, use of the dowel-in-the-belt loops to stop the spinning, etc. I have seen Tom Tomasello's video on this site where he clearly shows keeping the trail hip back and swinging through and past the restrained hips (i.e. keeping them closed coming into impact).
Not sure about Tommy, but personally, I have never seen a pro with his hips closed at impact.
Originally Posted by jp99
I can't believe 'open' or 'closed' hips - as a swing thought - into impact are both correct. What seems to work well for me is the Tomasello approach of keeping the hips closed and driving the trail elbow past the hips which then open up somewhat coming into impact - but the hips are 'following' the trail elbow, not leading or connected ala Hogan.
I've tried to decipher this and remain confused because (1) excellent pro level swings certainly appear as trail elbow riding the trail hip into impact with hips quite open at impact (2) Tomasello and others advise keeping the hips closed and swing 'past' them.
Thoughts appreciated.
Simply put - in my opinion, the hips have two functions - to power the shoulders and to shift the weight. I personally would not advocate having closed hips at impact - and certainly not as a goal.
Per 5-0, the hands should control the pivot. The hips need to clear to allow the hands to come down onplane - and I cannot see the hands coming down on plane while remaining closed - not to mention other potential issues (lack of pivot lag, potential shoulders leading downswing - over the top, and most of all - roundhousing).
I wouldnt get too caught up in what others do or advocate, unless its Homer.
Hips need to clear. Hips should lead shoulders. Hips need to move to shift weight. I cannot see how these 3 factors could lead to closed hips at impact.
Just my take.
"Hips need to clear. Hips should lead shoulders. Hips need to move to shift weight. I cannot see how these 3 factors could lead to closed hips at impact."
Watch Tomasello's first video clip and you'll find a different opinion.
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