Pivot - Active or Passive

[comdpa]

...
I'm not very good with equations and physics - so I might be a duck in hunting season on this one but it's not just speed that's required to hit the ball further. It's the formula for Kinetic Energy that's important- KE=1/2mass x Velocity squared...

HAHA...That is good...

[12 piece bucket]

Did any of you boys see the Academy Live thing Monday with McLean? I have to read my boy two comic books before he crashes every night. The Hulk was gettin' ready to smash Benjamin Grimm, so I couldn't hear what ole Jimmy had to say. But he had some computer thingie workin'. Somehow teaching people about the x-factor .. . Pivot Lag. He was saying something about all this research he'd done with tour players.

Did you guys catch any of what he was pimping?

Mike "O" how would you teach somebody to have more Pivot Lag? and would you say that more Pivot Lag would translate to more KE?

Muchas!

B

[oztrainee]

Thanks for the info 12PB & mike O, just want to talk about our computer.

Our computer is so clever that if we are not be able to sort out our hands it will stop the pivot to function properly.

The finish swivel could be the key of getting our pivot to function, either passive or active, without the ability to roll the clubface, our computer will not allow us to rotate our pivot.

Be able to rotate the pivot will help to move the low point further to the front, and be able to roll the clubface will be able to instruct our computer to allow the pivot to turn.

So either the pivot is a bearing or e-motor, is not that important. What my believe is

more pivot will help you to slice the shot
more hand roll will help you to hook the shot.

We can only work our pivot, once we understand how to control our clubface.

Please correct my thought if I am wrong?

[tongzilla]

...the whole foundation of TGM - Pivot Powered Hand Controlled Pivot.

It is true that the Pivot provides Pivot Lag and is also the massive rotor that generates Angular Momentum for Throw Out Action for the Swinger. In that sense, we can view the Pivot as providing power. However, my understanding of Golf Stroke increased when I viewed the main function of the Pivot as Delivery rather than generating power.

Pivot Delivered Hand Controlled Pivot.

So who is responsible for power then?

Edit: after re-reading my post, I could foresee lots of opportunity for misinterpretation. Lets hope not too many will arise, but I will attempt to tackle them when they come.

[12 piece bucket]

Thanks for the info 12PB & mike O, just want to talk about our computer.

Our computer is so clever that if we are not be able to sort out our hands it will stop the pivot to function properly.

The finish swivel could be the key of getting our pivot to function, either passive or active, without the ability to roll the clubface, our computer will not allow us to rotate our pivot.


We can only work our pivot, once we understand how to control our clubface.

Dude . . . this is pretty good! Could you expand on this a bit. I think you are on to something here. I have often wondered why Swivel was a big deal since the ball is gone . . . so it has to be an intention thing right? So this would translate from the brain cell(s - plural for some) to the hands to the pivot?

Could you please go deeper my friend? I think you got it teased up to the boat . . . let's set the hook and get it in!

[bts]

To me, the pivot reacts/responds actively to the action of the hands.

Again, to experience what the pivot does while reacting to the hands, pull the club held stationary by someone toward the ball, or bend (push) the club with the clubhead against something stationary, by the hands. The harder the hands action (or your intention), the stronger the pivot's reaction. Feel the resistance/drag of the club (club lag) and the muscle tension all over the body (pivot lag) when a dynamic balance is reached. This is, what I believe, "Hands-controlled/reacting/responding-pivot".

In contrast, do the same thing to the club yet with the intention of pulling the hands with the pivot action. In this case, the pivot leads and the hands follow/react. See how the pivot and arms are pulled or dragged by the resistance of the stationary club and the absence of pivot lag. The harder the pivot action, the poorer the body rigidity. This is, what I believe, "Pivot-controlled/powered/dragged/following-hands", or the "merry-go-around" analogy (sorry, comdpa). There is nothing wrong with it in terms of moving the club, except a lot more "timing" is involved and a lot less "stability/compact" the "machine" is, and, hence, demands more practice and susceptible to pressure situation. It feels kind of snappy and may generate a lot more speed, yet it's also a "throwaway" of the "thrust" or "effective mass".

[Mike O]

.... we can view the Pivot as providing power. However, my understanding of Golf Stroke increased when I viewed the main function of the Pivot as Delivery rather than generating power.

Tong,

Excellent distinction here between the mechanical and the procedural!

Mechanically: The pivot lag/ pivot definitely adds power to the stroke

Procedural Ideal: You don't crudely focus more on the pivot to get more power- that's pivot controlled hands- when you're trying to move the pivot.

Interim Process: This is a common phase- process that one works through to get to a refined golf movement- and it IS A PROCESS- no doubt. So, I'm not saying that at certain times one wouldn't work only on their pivot, pivot lag, etc- they would and you do, but ideally you need to tie that stuff back in with your "intention" of moving the club. And the more you can change the pivot, pivot lag via the intention and hands, i.e. proper loading, pressure point locations, etc, etc. the better.

So on the Procedural stage- focusing on creating power with your pivot- regardless of how good or bad your alignments are- is say the 5 year into the game stage. Moving to more of the perspective that pivot provides delivery, is the 10, to 15, to 20+ year stage of development of your golf swing. All your alignments have to be much better, much more integrated, in order for less effort to provide the proper power. At the 5 year stage you need that pivot effort to overcome - "THE MESS". And then some never understand and never move forward- they never understand how that's not the way to swing it- after all "it doesn't work" or "I don't get any power if I don't focus on the body/pivot!"

Of course, the years used above are just crude examples- showing the principle. Some move through those stages faster than others.

[tongzilla]

Tong,

Excellent distinction here between the mechanical and the procedural!

Mechanically: The pivot lag/ pivot definitely adds power to the stroke

Procedural Ideal: You don't crudely focus more on the pivot to get more power- that's pivot controlled hands- when you're trying to move the pivot.

Interim Process: This is a common phase- process that one works through to get to a refined golf movement- and it IS A PROCESS- no doubt. So, I'm not saying that at certain times one wouldn't work only on their pivot, pivot lag, etc- they would and you do, but ideally you need to tie that stuff back in with your "intention" of moving the club. And the more you can change the pivot, pivot lag via the intention and hands, i.e. proper loading, pressure point locations, etc, etc. the better.

So on the Procedural stage- focusing on creating power with your pivot- regardless of how good or bad your alignments are- is say the 5 year into the game stage. Moving to more of the perspective that pivot provides delivery, is the 10, to 15, to 20+ year stage of development of your golf swing. All your alignments have to be much better, much more integrated, in order for less effort to provide the proper power. At the 5 year stage you need that pivot effort to overcome - "THE MESS". And then some never understand and never move forward- they never understand how that's not the way to swing it- after all "it doesn't work" or "I don't get any power if I don't focus on the body/pivot!"

Of course, the years used above are just crude examples- showing the principle. Some move through those stages faster than others.

Thanks Mike. I'm always feeding off you. And you've just made me more hungry!

Your "crude example" may scare some people off -- if I knew it would take me 20+ years before I achieve substantial integration of the Pivot -- I wouldn't have started playing this game!

Lets explore this "if you want to hit the ball further, then you must work harder with your pivot" mentality. As mentioned previously, focusing on the Pivot and its speed/movement/positions leads to a Pivot Controlled Hands procedure. Now the player learns about Hand Controlled Pivot (maybe through reading the book, or learning from an AI or information on forums). So he tries to hit everything with his Hands, without giving any thought to what his Body (Pivot) is doing. After a while, his Stroke may even look quite unorthodox, a very handsy swing with very little movement of the shoulders and hips. A pro or AI notices this and instructs the student to use more Pivot. So the student goes back to a Pivot Controlled Hands procedure, primarily focusing on making a bigger turn, getting the Right Shoulder on Plane, the Hips has turned the correct amount, everything is moving Parallel to the selected Delivery Line etc. After a while (20+ years) the student realises that Hand Controlled Pivot doesn't really mean hitting with the Hands only.
The breakthrough comes when the student learns that it really means hitting with the Hands together with its Lag Pressure Point(s), which is felt in the Hands. So now when the student 'hits with the Hands' his brain just will not allow him do that unless he also feels Lag Pressure in his Hands. But how the heck is he going to get max Lag Pressure? Only by initiating the Downstroke with the lower body (the feet, then the ankles, then the knees, etc.). But the student isn't thinking about all these different components. He's only thinking about his Hands, and even though he is initiating the Downstroke with his Hands, his Hands just won't start down unless it feels the necessary Lag Pressure. And it can only feel this if the Pivot has done its job properly.


Moving on...
I find it surprising (and irritating) that there are some extremely good players using Pivot Controlled Hands. Now, I haven't mastered the art of seeing whether someone is using Pivot Controlled Hands or not, but can you please share your thoughts on who you think some of these players are on Tour?

[oztrainee]

Tongz
Good post Tongz, plain English, easier for me to understand. both pivot and hands got to be trained.

12PB

Spoke to Comdpa about some drill, and he was recommended chipping with Cross Grip. I was trying it myself, and I can only chip with it. Correct me if I am wrong, Cross Grip will give you a Slice Tendency, and therefore if we are using it as a drill hitting 7 iron, it will help us to learn how to swivel. LEARN TO ROTATE THE CLUB FACE

Obviously some Ai will not require you to do your finish swivel, particular if you are doing angle and vertical hinging shot. Even though if you are a SWINGER, the right arm is just as important. You can swivel the clubface with either hand and not just the left hand. (Left arm always swinging, right arm always driving or SWINGING)

Some pivot Ai will totally disagreed to the above, as they believe that (Once you have your hands educated) the pivot do all the work for you. Yes, but you have to train your hand first.

First learn to hook the ball ( At that stage you might have to work a little bit with the ball position, and it will move the machine back a little bit). Keep training your hands. Our brain is so clever that if you hands is not train ( Not be able to rotate the clubface) The pivot will not help us to move the ball position forward (Rotate).

There are other points will help us to achieve the above, but is rather natural for most TGMers anyway. At address, we try to setup for zero shift, which our left wrist position higher (between uncock and level position), use more of the elbow to lift the club up..

Everyone have different feeling of clubface rotation, some people feel like they are doing it right at the top, and some are later. I think we just have to experiment with it. But certainly what Compda recommend CROSS GRIP CHIPPING is certainly something help to teach our hands to rotate.

[comdpa]

Tongz
Good post Tongz, plain English, easier for me to understand. both pivot and hands got to be trained.

12PB

Spoke to Comdpa about some drill, and he was recommended chipping with Cross Grip. I was trying it myself, and I can only chip with it. Correct me if I am wrong, Cross Grip will give you a Slice Tendency, and therefore if we are using it as a drill hitting 7 iron, it will help us to learn how to swivel. LEARN TO ROTATE THE CLUB FACE

..... But certainly what Compda recommend CROSS GRIP CHIPPING is certainly something help to teach our hands to rotate.

Wait up, Wait up....

Kenny, I advised you to chip with a 10-1-E Cross Handed Grip because its "main feature is that Right Arm Action cannot overpower the Flat Left Wrist..."

That was my only intention...to teach you how to maintain a FLAT LEFT WRIST.

So are you coming to Singapore or not??