10-13-C

[DOCW3]

This shoulder turn at 90 degrees to the spine is what Nick Price as an example says is a key fundamental. My assessment is the TSP located would be too steep for the power clubs which may be the point of HK's comment, "normally confined to the shiftless Hip Turn." Of course, Price shifts planes and has a different definition for plane.

However, in the last sentence, there is reference to a posture adjustment which would simplify 10-13-A, the variable for 12-1-0/12-2-0. Obviously HK felt this was sufficient as he stopped there.


Could someone add a few sentences? Does he mean the angle the shoulders turn on would be the same as the TSPA and what would be the simplification? Who would benefit from Rotated?

DRW

[armourall]

Doc,

This post from Yoda on another forum may answer some of your questions (and hopefully save Yoda some typing).

Your question was "How do you determine the exact amount of waist bend?" Here's how:

Three preliminary thoughts:

First, remember that the Shoulder Turn Component (7-13) refers strictly to the Right Shoulder. There is no geometric control in The Golfing Machine for the Left Shoulder, nor is one needed.

Second, recall that the Rotated Shoulder Turn (10-13-C) is produced by the 'normal' rotation of the Shoulders, i.e., at right angles to the spine.

Third, by definiton, there is no axis tilt permitted. This limits its Downstroke Turn to the Shiftless Hip Turn (10-14-C) and its specialized applications.

Now to your question and how to determine the exact amount of waist bend:

1. Get your Driver.

2. Standing about Driver distance from the Ball, think of the Driver as a hunting rifle. Put the Clubhead into your Right Shoulder and hold the Club just as you would aim a rifle. Get the Feel of the Rotated Shoulder Turn at first just by keeping your rifle barrel level with the ground, and turn from left to right and back again, over and over, getting the Feel of the perfectly level shoulder rotation. Pretend you're in a carnival shooting gallery and you are knocking off ducks at various points on the never-ending line of the conveyer belt. Make sure you are taking 'dead aim' by sighting directly down the 'rifle barrel' using your right eye.

3. Once you've got this motion down pat -- should take less than a minute! -- we need to move off the horizontal plane and onto the exact Rotated Shoulder Plane. So...

Keeping the 'butt' of your 'rifle' into your right shoulder -- and not dropping your arms in the slightest. Careful, this is the tendency! The 'rifle' must remain in the same relation with the Right Shoulder as it did in the horizontal drill above -- bend forward from the waist until you are 'aiming' your rifle (the butt-end of the Club) directly at the Plane Line.

This is the exact amount of waist bend you need to accomodate the On Plane Rotated Shoulder Turn in both directions.

Taking this a little farther, after you've located the exact waist bend, get the Feel of the On Plane Rotated Shoulder Turn motion by rotating the shoulders (at right angles to the spine) the same way you did when you were 'aiming' in the horizontal plane, but this time 'aim the rifle' at the Plane line and 'Trace' it in both directions of the turn.

Summarizing:

1. To determine the exact waist bend, 'shoot' the Plane Line with your 'Right Shoulder rifle.'

2. To maintain the Right Shoulder on its Rotated Shoulder Plane, 'Trace' the Plane Line with your 'rifle barrel!'

[MizunoJoe]

Using 10-13-C, in such a way to put the shoulder turn plane on the Plane Line, requires a different waist bend for every club. I've tried this and can't do it without the rifle drill described by Yoda. Can you imagine doing this on every shot and the comments/looks you would get?

[DOCW3]

Doc,

This post from Yoda on another forum may answer some of your questions (and hopefully save Yoda some typing).

Quote:

Your question was "How do you determine the exact amount of waist bend?" Here's how: Three preliminary thoughts: First, remember that the Shoulder Turn Component (7-13) refers strictly to the Right Shoulder. There is no geometric control in The Golfing Machine for the Left Shoulder, nor is one needed. Second, recall that the Rotated Shoulder Turn (10-13-C) is produced by the 'normal' rotation of the Shoulders, i.e., at right angles to the spine. Third, by definiton, there is no axis tilt permitted. This limits its Downstroke Turn to the Shiftless Hip Turn (10-14-C) and its specialized applications. Now to your question and how to determine the exact amount of waist bend: 1. Get your Driver. 2. Standing about Driver distance from the Ball, think of the Driver as a hunting rifle. Put the Clubhead into your Right Shoulder and hold the Club just as you would aim a rifle. Get the Feel of the Rotated Shoulder Turn at first just by keeping your rifle barrel level with the ground, and turn from left to right and back again, over and over, getting the Feel of the perfectly level shoulder rotation. Pretend you're in a carnival shooting gallery and you are knocking off ducks at various points on the never-ending line of the conveyer belt. Make sure you are taking 'dead aim' by sighting directly down the 'rifle barrel' using your right eye. 3. Once you've got this motion down pat -- should take less than a minute! -- we need to move off the horizontal plane and onto the exact Rotated Shoulder Plane. So... Keeping the 'butt' of your 'rifle' into your right shoulder -- and not dropping your arms in the slightest. Careful, this is the tendency! The 'rifle' must remain in the same relation with the Right Shoulder as it did in the horizontal drill above -- bend forward from the waist until you are 'aiming' your rifle (the butt-end of the Club) directly at the Plane Line. This is the exact amount of waist bend you need to accomodate the On Plane Rotated Shoulder Turn in both directions. Taking this a little farther, after you've located the exact waist bend, get the Feel of the On Plane Rotated Shoulder Turn motion by rotating the shoulders (at right angles to the spine) the same way you did when you were 'aiming' in the horizontal plane, but this time 'aim the rifle' at the Plane line and 'Trace' it in both directions of the turn. Summarizing: 1. To determine the exact waist bend, 'shoot' the Plane Line with your 'Right Shoulder rifle.' 2. To maintain the Right Shoulder on its Rotated Shoulder Plane, 'Trace' the Plane Line with your 'rifle barrel!'

Thanks. I now understand how to set the spine angle for an "On Plane" turn in both directions which I assume is the "simplification." However, if "confined to the Shiftless Hip Turn" which per 10-14-C "tends toward a soft stroke with emphasis on accuracy" is the RST alternative limited to the shorter shots? If it is, my conclusion that the RST reaches a TSP angle that is too steep for the driver or longer shots would seem to be correct and indicate a reason Nick Price and others who turn 90* to the spine, shift to the elbow plane. I don't detect any indication in Yoda's drill.
Of course, this assumes I have a correct image of the reference points established by the turning right shoulder under these different conditions.

DRW