When Swinging it's the right shoulder which is pushing on #1, which pushes on the left arm, which pulls the left shoulder, which pulls the shaft, and when the left arm blasts off, it's still pulling the shaft, so you should call it what it is, Swinging.
Joe no offence intended but how can pushing the left arm at the #1 pull the left shoulder around? Im trying to see that mechanically.
I do feel some #1pp when Swinging but Id say its the non accelerating thrust variety , a product of Extensor Action. It does load the #1pp during Startdown , the period of (Right) Shoulder Acceleration as the Left Shoulder takes out any slack in the left arm against the EA at the #1pp. Keeping me within the bounds of a three accumulator 4,2,3 swinging method.
Are you sure this isn't what you're really feeling , Joe?
I got caught up by the pulling versus pushing.
I thought that was LA vs RA, but the pulling could perhaps be more in in both hands like tugging?
I have probably not been pulling at all - more like OTT right shoulder throwing away... I'm sorry to say.. so this is mostly just a theoretical question on my part.. but I'm eager to learn..
The Hands are just clamps, hitting or swinging. The pull of swinging is with the body for pivot strokes, fuller shots. When you get the Macdonald drills going , flowing the body throws the arms off ........advanced MacDonald drills will have a little right arm pick up and a little throw at the bottom perhaps but thats for another day.
Take a golf club and with it approx parallel to the ground and behind you as if in Release pre impact hook the club head around something. A hand rail, the upright on a golf cart , your caddies hands . Now forget golf moves , de program all you know about golf. I want you to pull this club length wise like a rope in a tug of war game. Pull it . Did you employ some golf moves , spinning hips or something ? Don't . Pull on the rope . Homer said "pull with whatever you can pull with , pull with your ears if you want". Do you feel how your body is braced , your feet are planted and solid , how your using your weight and your core and not your arms only .
This is easiest to see with the imaginary tug of war rope parallel to the ground but in golf for the swinger this longitudinal acceleration , pulling on the rope length wise , arrow from quiver deal actually begins in Startdown . It is the opposite of radial acceleration and delays release so long as the club shaft is moving in a linear manner . Once it move outside the hands radially , CF throws the club head out.
So the "rope" you need to pull longitudinally , length wise , in Startdown is positioned more like in the following diagram from George Knudson. Here was a master describing Homers longitudinal acceleration , pulling , drag loading , downswing sequence in his own words. Body pulls arms. Is this pivot to hands? Not so long as you are directing with the #3 pp. See the top arrow in his diagram and the direction it is pointing in......away from the ball and target!!!! The hands here are moving 3 dimensionally BACWARDS, Down and Out. OTT moves would have the arrow pointed more at the ball the Hands moving FORWARDS , Down and Out. Shortening your backswing to 3/4 or Top will really help when ingraining a longitudinal pull. Try it with little shots first where your hands don't get far enough back to necessitate the "opposite direction" to the target or ball pull at Top . Start with Acquired Motion and then work it to Total Motion. You can even have a little longitudinal in longer chip shots..... in fact thats a great place to feel its magic. It will change your impact immediately. No more laying the turf over a chip via throw away. Simply put you can't throw away if you are in the process of pulling longitudinally.
The Hands are just clamps, hitting or swinging. The pull of swinging is with the body for pivot strokes, fuller shots. When you get the Macdonald drills going , flowing the body throws the arms off ........advanced MacDonald drills will have a little right arm pick up and a little throw at the bottom perhaps but thats for another day.
Take a golf club and with it approx parallel to the ground and behind you as if in Release pre impact hook the club head around something. A hand rail, the upright on a golf cart , your caddies hands . Now forget golf moves , de program all you know about golf. I want you to pull this club length wise like a rope in a tug of war game. Pull it . Did you employ some golf moves , spinning hips or something ? Don't . Pull on the rope . Homer said "pull with whatever you can pull with , pull with your ears if you want". Do you feel how your body is braced , your feet are planted and solid , how your using your weight and your core and not your arms only .
This is easiest to see with the imaginary tug of war rope parallel to the ground but in golf for the swinger this longitudinal acceleration , pulling on the rope length wise , arrow from quiver deal actually begins in Startdown . It is the opposite of radial acceleration and delays release so long as the club shaft is moving in a linear manner . Once it move outside the hands radially , CF throws the club head out.
So the "rope" you need to pull longitudinally , length wise , in Startdown is positioned more like in the following diagram from George Knudson. Here was a master describing Homers longitudinal acceleration , pulling , drag loading , downswing sequence in his own words. Body pulls arms. Is this pivot to hands? Not so long as you are directing with the #3 pp. See the top arrow in his diagram and the direction it is pointing in......away from the ball and target!!!! OTT moves would have the arrow pointed more at the ball. Shortening your backswing to 3/4 or Top will really help when ingraining a longitudinal pull. Try it with little shots first where your hands don't get far enough back to necessitate the "opposite direction" to the target or ball pull at Top .
Nice.
I'll put it in my post collection and see if I'm able to use this in a meaningful way as soon as possible.
THRUST 6-C-1 #4 "wherever the straight Left Arm contacts the left side. And. The picture with caption "#4 Edged Arrow.
Preface; I have been thinking about shoulder turn and the above has always been problematic to me.
The general thought seems to be the left arm is "moved" by the contact point with the chest. My belief is the left arm (#4 accumulator when not in line with the shoulders) is accelerated axially by a pure pull and radially by change in angular velocity of the turning shoulders. The 6-c-1 presentation is not helpful to my construction. Any contact between the arm and chest is purely incidental and not necessary for proper actuation of #4 accumulator.
Other thoughts??
HB
Trying to get this back on track .
If we equate #4 pa to a triangle model with the angle formed by the left arm and the line of the shoulders representing the lever in question . The left shoulder being the point where the two lines meet obviously . Given a straight left arm and the fact that the shoulders are fixed in their length two sides of the triangle are predetermined in terms of their length. Any lengthening in the Right Arms side of the triangle , increases the angle at the left shoulder and vice versa. The loading of the #4pp and the firing of #4 power accumulator relating to the bending and extension of this lever or angle. #4 pa being Left Arm Power how ever it is produced.
So agreed the "any point of contact" seems outside of a pure or simplistic 2D geometric model. For the golfer whose motion is 3D the point of contact between left arm and chest will change for different shots. Depending on the amount to which the left arm is raised vertically, the plane of the shoulder turn and the length of the swing etc etc. You can fire #4 with a one degree change in the angle ... Say from 90 degrees to 89 and then back to 91. A mini Pull Minor Basic Stroke with the shaft vertical and the ball played at low point ..... not your normal put or chip shot set up no.
Is Homers "any point of contact" merely an effort to help us locate the angle on a human golfer given the various places it could be formed for different strokes?
If we equate this to a triangle model with the angle formed by the left arm and the line of the shoulders representing the lever in question . Then the left shoulder is the point where the two lines meet obviously . Any lengthening in the Right Arm increases the angle at the left shoulder and vice versa.
So agreed the "any point of contact" seems outside of a pure or simplistic 2D geometric model. For the golfer whose motion is 3D the point of contact between left arm and chest will change for different shots. Depending on the amount to which the left arm is raised vertically and the length of the swing etc etc.
Is Homers "any point of contact" an effort to help us locate the angle on a human golfer given the various places it could be formed for different strokes?
No disparagement at all intended to HK's work, He has the application of #4 soo right in many places. BUT. I suggest he might give renewed thought to 6-C-1 #4 and the drawing. In words I would say it is "that piece of rope" that fastens shoulder to upper arm is PP#4 and #4 accumulator is the angle between arm and shoulders just as described. I do not like to think about "ANY point of contact".
Joe no offence intended but how can pushing the left arm at the #1 pull the left shoulder around? Im trying to see that mechanically.
It's a combo of right shoulder movement moving the left shoulder together with the left arm pushing on it. Take your stance with out a club, let your left arm hang, go to the top and drive your right shoulder down plane and see how much the left shoulder moves. Now grip your hands together and do it and see how the straight left arm moved the left shoulder much farther. You can pull with the left arm and shoulder, but it's not TGM approved. There's a reason why the left shoulder is hardly mentioned at all in TGM.
It's a combo of right shoulder movement moving the left shoulder together with the left arm pushing on it. Take your stance with out a club, let your left arm hang, go to the top and drive your right shoulder down plane and see how much the left shoulder moves. Now grip your hands together and do it and see how the straight left arm moved the left shoulder much farther. You can pull with the left arm and shoulder, but it's not TGM approved. There's a reason why the left shoulder is hardly mentioned at all in TGM.
Would someone please do a free body, pinned structure diagram of this technique with appropriate force and resultant vectors that will demonstrate a satisfactory operation for a swinging stroke?
Thanks
HB
Ps. Most Engineering Schools grade on the curve.
Last edited by HungryBear : 06-18-2012 at 07:22 PM.
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