WARNING - this is an extremely long essay on my early interpretation of TGM especially :- plane/ right forearm position at impact and address / clubshaft forward lean!! Sorry in advance if it is boring but all i need is for 1 or 2 people to read and say yes or no regarding certain questions. Apology in advance if i have got it completely wrong!!
It is my embryonic attempt to question my understanding of TGM . It shows all the logical steps in my thoughts and hence is long. I try to use english rather than TGM-ese because ,rather like my German , i can pronounce TGM-ese but not understand it fully yet!!
I come to this forum after much exposure to the standard “my way” golfing texts, from Nicklaus to Nick Faldo, via Hogan , Player and Leadbetter etc. I was slightly surprised to learn that I had never heard anything about TGM, even though it has been around for 36 years and had successfully been through at least 6 editions ! My mistake… but i feel that there is a groundswell of TGM info going around that may reach a certain "critical mass" and suddenly the world will know!!
I have introduced myself to the TGM theories via website forum on this site and others (Manzella, Evans etc) which rapidly convinced to get the book and dig deeper.
It is only natural for me to compare and contrast my current knowledge with that which I find in TGM. I am clearly not looking for 100% recycling of my current knowledge because the information that I already possess has yet to bear fruit in a reliable swing philosophy . I have great days but too many bad days!! However, there is some reassurance in knowing that some of the principle aspects of a great player’s technique have a sound engineering TGM basis. For example :-
I can see many links to Hogan ( PP3 and PP1 are well described (in English rather than TGM-ese!!) in chapter 1 “the grip” in the Modern Fundamentals of Golf) . Such consistencies between a great striker like Hogan and TGM give one confidence to press ahead with swing experiments. If a detail is shared between many great strikers and backed up by science then I am more prone to experiment myself.
I am also sold on the straight , vertical left wrist - and there are some great pics on this site of Hogan and Trevino and Yoda demonstrating this.
I have seen some posts from Brady Riggs ( ? on manzella site) where he seems to be “playfully” putting up pictures of Brad Faxon ( poor overall Driving stats – but straight left wrist at impact) against Retief Goosen ( better stats and bent left wrist) and asking who is the better ball striker !!. I say "playfully" because I am sure that he does not teach bent wrist impact. My response to this seemingly "damning evidence" re. the importance of straight left wrist is that nobody knows where those balls landed, what hinge involved or how wild Brad Faxon would be if he DIDN’T have a straight left wrist!! ( vica versa for Goosen if he were to straighten wrist – but please understand that I am not going to send him a Tac Tic!!) .
It is only by asking questions like this that lead to greater understanding of what is really important in the golf swing and Redgoat has an outstanding selection of photos to use as reference material for discussion.
I am fascinated by the right forearm and have read many of the posts after extensive searches. I am alarmed to realise that such a crucial element has never entered into any of the teaching i have ever received ( all NON - AI instruction)
One of the areas I find hard to understand and find "PGA -pro" evidence for is the right elbow position at address .TGM sets out a “Basic pattern” for drive loading and drag loading( 12-1-0 and 12-2-0)which involves zero plane angle variation and plane angle basic on “turned shoulder”. This appears to be a sound mechanical position for the simplest, most secure , yet powerful, swing. Homer says plane variations can be hazardous 10-6-B and "turned shoulder... has far better performance characteristics than any other"
This position is illustrated in photos in TGM 9-2-1 #2 "preliminary address" and 10-6-B #1. Right forearm is on same plane as clubshaft (elbow in line with shaft extension). This is a position rarely seen by top pros today who appear to have elbows on a more inclined plane than the clubshaft at address. There is a good photo on redgoat website showing forearm to shaft angle at address ( on Ernie Els section) where it is measured at 145 degrees for Ernie and Tiger - ie. not 180 degrees . Very few pros have any fix other than a forward press , which does not realign the forearm and shaft at all but only leans shaft forward. This immediately puts them into a basic swing pattern requiring single or double plane variation because at impact the is good photo evidence that they achieve forearm/ shaft alignment.
I make that sound like a "statement of fact" but i am really expressing MY limited understanding and am hopefully going to be corrected if need be!!
In 7-7 Homer states that due to “personal preference…it is not always possible to adhere to a single inclined plane classification throughout the whole swing” but goes on to stress the importance of the forearm at impact. This makes sense but why is it that almost all top pros have some “personal preference, natural inclination or pressure of conditions” ( 7-7) that means that they shift planes!!
Is there something about the human anatomy (eg. upper arm : foream length ratio ) that makes this variation of swing pattern difficult for top pros to adhere too ?
Please understand that I ask this question as a beginner( to TGM) who has experimented with the pattern described in TGM 12-1-0 and 12-2-0 but find my hands are unusually high and the ball-striking variable. Should I persist or do I have some “personal preference, natural inclination or pressure of conditions” ( 7-7) which means I should alter my pattern to shift planes? If so what is this “preference” which is leading me toward a mechanically more complicated swing - something I am not consciously looking for!! Unless there is some power, accuracy advantage – unlikely!
Please try and follow the following line of thought to see if my logic is correct. Best done with club and ball available...
1. Take up a "typical" address position, trying to mimic tour pro with hands centrebody/slightly forward with irons but elbows on a more inclined plane than clubshaft. Feels normal to me and similar to Tiger/Ernie etc
2. Now try and get the elbows on same plane as shaft at address. This seems to be possible by two differing ways (if hands stay in same position relative to body ( ie hands not lean forward))- either
a)club and ball position stay constant and shoulders have to rise. ( this address position mimics some poor impact positions of golfers who do not lean shaft forward IMO - they lose body angles, hit ball with sweetspot but look awful - up on tip-toes)
or
b)shoulder position and body angles stay constant, ball is stationary BUT clubhead moves forward to a position where hosel is next to ball.( clearly a bad move but surely a possible shank impact explanation for golfer who is set up as above and is working on maintaining body angles ( eg. butt against the wall etc) BUT does not lean the clubshaft forward)
3. The only way to set up as above (see section 1) and then change to elbow in line with clubshaft at impact, whilst maintaining body angles and clubhead -to-ball relationship is to lean the shaft forward - I think!! This seems to me what impact fix is all about- real impact fix not just forward press. If so then why is this exaggerated fix not seen more commonly in PGA pro photos?
Again my previous education has been about body angles etc but it only works if the shaft leans forward!!
Given that most pros adopt address position with right elbow not on shaft plane line , clubhead sweetspot against ball centre and hands mid body/ mildly forward for iron but do achieve right elbow on shaft plane line at impact - then they must be leaning the shaft forward, even without going through an obvious "impact fix"position.
1. While the pros at Address usually have a Bent Left Wrist and their Right Forearm above the Clubshaft (below Plane), at Impact their Left Wrists are Flat or Arched and their Right Forearm is in-line with the Clubshaft.
2. You're right, the pros don't go into Impact Fix and verifty their Alignments (Flat Left Wrist; On Plane Right Forearm; Left Shoulder much higher than Right Shoulder; Clubface position reltive to the Angle of Approach for the Hinge Action they plan to use;...etc.). They start at Adjusted Address, which is in the book. And yes, at Adjusted Address, the Left Wrist is Bent, the Right Forearm isn't On Plane (because the Hands drop closer to the ground as you move from Fix to Adjusted Address), and the Shoulders are more level than their position at Impact Fix. Oh, and the Clubface closes as you move from Fix to AA, too.
It is your choice as to whether you want to begin Start Up from Impact Fix, modified Impact Fix, or Adjusted Address. Starting from Adjusted Address has its advantages for Swingers (most pros are Swingers, which is why you see so many of them use Adjusted Address); Hitters should start from a modified Impact Fix (Flat Left Wrist) with their Hips pre-closed.
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General Observation Based On Pro Golfers And NOT A Criticism Of Your Question!
Personally, I don't care what the pros do. I believe that they are basically idiot savants who are born with the gift of Educated Hands which can easily compensate for some of the crazy stuff they do. As Chuck Evans says, "They're skilled hand manipulators." Consequently, I don't find much value in imitating what they do, since my Hands aren't as educated as theirs.
For a pro 'TGM-model', could I suggest you take a look at Joe Durant. He is coached by Ron Gring, who is TGM trained and has excellent ballstriking stats (very near the top of PGA players), a very nice simple swing, and a right forearm that is onplane (or very close to it) at address. I think a video can be found of him at a site called golfswing.com (which looks a bit dodgy by the way, but has some nice swing videos).
One last thing: According to Chuck Evans, Ben Hogan and Mo Norman--two of the best ballstrikers ever--had the least amount of change in the angle of the Clubshaft from Address to Impact that he has measured on video.
I have gone through phases of Hitting and Swinging this year and have settled on Swinging as my preferred method.
When hitting, I set up at impact fix with my right forearm on-plane.
When swinging, I set up at adjusted address after getting my head position by checking impact fix fist. Going to adjusted address is simply relaxing my arms after checking impact fix. I then have a bent left wrist, flat right wrist at address and my right forearm is slightly below plane due to my adding a bit more #3 accumulator when I relax into adjusted address.
Note: My head does not move when I go from impact fix to adjusted address. And whether hitting or swinging, my left wrist is flat and my right forearm is on plane at impact.
Regarding Faxon vs Goosen: Faxon is slightly more accurate but Goosen outdives him by 20yds. However, neither are super accurate at 138th and 157th respectively.
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Hybrid Mode
