In one of their videos, Yoda and Jeff demonstrate how ball position is moved further back from the left shoulder for shorter clubs. In the video, Jeff assumes his stance and has his hands in front of his left thigh as he holds several clubs of differing lengths at the same time. The shorter clubs had the clubhead soled further back from the left shoulder. I was thinking about the implications of this and had the following thoughts:
- The shorter the club, the more the clubface should be closed relative to the back of the left hand. So at the top or end, the clubface looks a lot more shut with a wedge than with a driver.
- The shorter the club, the greater the amount of right wrist bend set at impact fix since the clubhead is soled further back in the stance.
- Low point occurs when the hands are under the left shoulder but because shorter clubs are soled further back, the low point for shorter clubs is further back than with longer clubs.
- The left arm flying wedge is not a perfectly straight line between the left arm and the clubshaft when viewed from in front of the golfer. The shorter the club, the more the left wedge contains an angle between the left arm and the club shaft.
- The shorter the club, the more the clubface should be closed relative to the back of the left hand. So at the top or end, the clubface looks a lot more shut with a wedge than with a driver.
The relationship of the clubface to the back of the left hand should be the same for all clubs. It is more dependent upon the grip type employed.
- The shorter the club, the greater the amount of right wrist bend set at impact fix since the clubhead is soled further back in the stance.
Not sure that is correct. Part of this may be a factor of the type motion being employed and the golfers address (body style, etc.)
I do no the term 'soled' should be used carefully. If done correctly the club falls to the ground and is no longer aligned as it was with impact fix.
- Low point occurs when the hands are under the left shoulder but because shorter clubs are soled further back, the low point for shorter clubs is further back than with longer clubs.
Low point should be the same for the left arm/club/left shoulder.
- The left arm flying wedge is not a perfectly straight line between the left arm and the clubshaft when viewed from in front of the golfer. The shorter the club, the more the left wedge contains an angle between the left arm and the club shaft.
Straight Line or Vertical Line? Impact Fix or Adjusted Address?
In one of their videos, Yoda and Jeff demonstrate how ball position is moved further back from the left shoulder for shorter clubs. In the video, Jeff assumes his stance and has his hands in front of his left thigh as he holds several clubs of differing lengths at the same time. The shorter clubs had the clubhead soled further back from the left shoulder. I was thinking about the implications of this and had the following thoughts:
- The shorter the club, the more the clubface should be closed relative to the back of the left hand. So at the top or end, the clubface looks a lot more shut with a wedge than with a driver.
- The shorter the club, the greater the amount of right wrist bend set at impact fix since the clubhead is soled further back in the stance.
- Low point occurs when the hands are under the left shoulder but because shorter clubs are soled further back, the low point for shorter clubs is further back than with longer clubs.
- The left arm flying wedge is not a perfectly straight line between the left arm and the clubshaft when viewed from in front of the golfer. The shorter the club, the more the left wedge contains an angle between the left arm and the club shaft.
For myself, no change, middle of the stance, for irons, unless for working the ball.
Slightly close to the front foot for driving, unless for working the ball.
__________________ Yani Tseng, Go! Go! Go! Yani Tseng Did It Again! YOU load and sustain the "LAG", during which the "LAW" releases it, ideally beyond impact.
"Sustain (Yang/陽) the lag (Yin/陰)" is "the unification of Ying and Yang" (陰陽合一).
The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".
"Lag" is the secret of golf, passion is the secret of life.
Think as a golfer, execute like a robot.
Rotate, twist, spin, turn. Bend the shaft.
- The shorter the club, the more the clubface should be closed relative to the back of the left hand. So at the top or end, the clubface looks a lot more shut with a wedge than with a driver.
The relationship of the clubface to the back of the left hand should be the same for all clubs. It is more dependent upon the grip type employed.
- The shorter the club, the greater the amount of right wrist bend set at impact fix since the clubhead is soled further back in the stance.
Not sure that is correct. Part of this may be a factor of the type motion being employed and the golfers address (body style, etc.)
I do no the term 'soled' should be used carefully. If done correctly the club falls to the ground and is no longer aligned as it was with impact fix.
- Low point occurs when the hands are under the left shoulder but because shorter clubs are soled further back, the low point for shorter clubs is further back than with longer clubs.
Low point should be the same for the left arm/club/left shoulder.
- The left arm flying wedge is not a perfectly straight line between the left arm and the clubshaft when viewed from in front of the golfer. The shorter the club, the more the left wedge contains an angle between the left arm and the club shaft.
Straight Line or Vertical Line? Impact Fix or Adjusted Address?
Here is an image of the setup changes demonstrated by Jeff that I was referring to:
Jeff is in impact fix here and shows how the wedge is placed further backwards from the left shoulder. I assume he is showing that his hands are in the same position for both clubs. So there is a larger angle between shaft and left arm for the wedge than the driver at fix when viewed from this position.
I think I was wrong about low point - it's the same for the different clubs. However, I still think that the grip gets "stronger" as the club gets shorter. I recall Yoda mentioning that the grip is aligned down the angle of approach and I think I finally understand what he meant. The angle of approach is more cross line for the shorter clubs since impact is further back from low point. So the hands should be more turned to accomodate this?
Jeff is in impact fix here and shows how the wedge is placed further backwards from the left shoulder. I assume he is showing that his hands are in the same position for both clubs. So there is a larger angle between shaft and left arm for the wedge than the driver at fix when viewed from this position.
I think I was wrong about low point - it's the same for the different clubs. However, I still think that the grip gets "stronger" as the club gets shorter. I recall Yoda mentioning that the grip is aligned down the angle of approach and I think I finally understand what he meant. The angle of approach is more cross line for the shorter clubs since impact is further back from low point. So the hands should be more turned to accomodate this?
I am unable for whatever reason to access the picture you are referencing.
As I recall Jeff I believe stated that he lets the club define the location for full shots.
Basically the club head leading edge when parallel to the ground will define the forwarding leaning angle of the shaft. The angle then should extend up the shaft to the left shoulder in a straight line. The physical position of the hands will change from club a bit. As for the right wrist bend, having a flat left wrist, then the amount of bend becomes more a byproduct of the right elbow and right shoulder. Take your grip, flatten your left wrist. Now with the left arm extended in front of you, bend your right elbow, keeping the left wrist flat. If you bend the right elbow outward, it will pull the right shoulder out and increase the right wrist bend. If you bend the right elbow downward, the right shoulder goes down and outward, but the wrist will retain about the same amount of bend.
One factor in all this is the type grip you take, another is if you are swing(jeff) or hitting(ted) do to the stroke type employed.
What really defines the amount of right wrist bend with a flat wrist is the right elbow and right shoulder position and alignments.
Hope that makes sense.
I don't believe for full strokes Yoda has ever advocated changing the grip between clubs. It would require a different alignment/mechanic between clubs then. Not the simplest of techniques to employ IMO.
Hi Martee thanks for your comments on this thread. Interesting stuff.
One thing that i'm still struggling with and maybe ejhong is as well. Is if you move the ball back in your stance for shorter irons (like Jeff Hull) and you keep the same alignment of the club face with the left hand, as ejhong says you would be setting up more cross line for shorter clubs. So how with a clubface aiming further right do you avoid hitting the ball further right? Also wouldn't the fact the with shorter irons you have a shorter compression also magnify this problem?
I am unable for whatever reason to access the picture you are referencing.
As I recall Jeff I believe stated that he lets the club define the location for full shots.
Basically the club head leading edge when parallel to the ground will define the forwarding leaning angle of the shaft. The angle then should extend up the shaft to the left shoulder in a straight line. The physical position of the hands will change from club a bit. As for the right wrist bend, having a flat left wrist, then the amount of bend becomes more a byproduct of the right elbow and right shoulder. Take your grip, flatten your left wrist. Now with the left arm extended in front of you, bend your right elbow, keeping the left wrist flat. If you bend the right elbow outward, it will pull the right shoulder out and increase the right wrist bend. If you bend the right elbow downward, the right shoulder goes down and outward, but the wrist will retain about the same amount of bend.
One factor in all this is the type grip you take, another is if you are swing(jeff) or hitting(ted) do to the stroke type employed.
What really defines the amount of right wrist bend with a flat wrist is the right elbow and right shoulder position and alignments.
Hope that makes sense.
I don't believe for full strokes Yoda has ever advocated changing the grip between clubs. It would require a different alignment/mechanic between clubs then. Not the simplest of techniques to employ IMO.
This is what I used to think and I used to check the leading edge of my clubface at the top of my backswing and see if it looked "flat" or not. Now, if my new conception is the correct one, it seems I was hurting myself by trying to "weaken" my grip for the shorter clubs. The flat look of the clubface at the top of my backswing should vary depending on what club I am hitting. Only with the driver should I see a position where the back of my left hand appears nearly in line with the face of the club at the top.
So my current thinking is that for shorter clubs, when viewed from face on, the left arm and clubshaft do not form a straight line at impact fix. However, I just realized that this fact does not require the destruction of the integrity of the left arm wedge since the grip is turned on the club a little bit and facing down the angle of approach. The angle between the left arm and clubshaft that is apparent from the face on view is because the wrist is in a level state and the hands are slightly turned rather than due to any unwanted arching of the left wrist.
For example, if a driver swing is struck at low point, the left arm will look like it is in line with the shaft when viewed from face on. However, if you viewed the left arm and clubshaft just prior to impact with the driver, you would see a little bit of an angle between the shaft and the left arm since the left arm is rolling a little at this point - from face on you are seeing a little bit of the proper left wedge angle caused by the left wrist being in a level condition. The hands at this slightly pre-impact position for the driver with the face open, are exactly what they should be for the impact position for a wedge. However, the wedge has a hook-face and so it is set square to the target. I hope this is not too confusing. Of course, I'm not sure if all this is correct or not, but it seems to feel right and make sense to me.
Can you see that image now? I tried changing it to a larger version.
One more thing I just noticed :-> (maybe completely wrong). At impact, the right elbow should be higher relative to the shaft plane with the longer clubs than with the shorter clubs. The reason for this is that the longer clubs impact the ball closer to low point or follow through than the shorter clubs. I recall a post by Matthew where he mentioned that the right forearm travels from under plane in the swing, across the plane of the shaft, and ends up over the plane at follow through as the right elbow straightens. The implication of this is that the closer you are at impact to follow through, the higher the right elbow should be and the straighter the right arm should be.
So my thought is that trying to set your right forearm on plane at impact fix for your driver is not a good idea unless you are playing the ball well back in your stance. Another interesting implication of this is that there is only one ball position relative to your left shoulder where your right forearm is exactly on plane at impact.
(Basic Motion Rocks - I've been having fun basic motioning a wedge, 3 iron and driver and trying to gauge the differences at impact/setup)
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