[Mike O]

[quote=Bumpy;93598]Mike O.,

Are the following posts by Yoda and Tongzilla consistent with your definition of Manipulated Hands? Unfortunately, there was no response to Tong's post and the thread died. If they are not consistent and/or correct will you elaborate?

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So, manipulated hands swinger is not about manipulating your hands during the swing. It refers to manipulating the clubface at impact fix before taking the grip, and then swinging as you would normally. [EDIT: and adjusting Aiming Point if you want.] Correct?

The bad thing about being a true swinger is because an exact ball location is needed to produce a straighaway flight. Correct?

However, Yoda says there is no downside to manipulated hands swinging. Well, IMO, all that has happened is instead of being precise about ball location, the focus has shifted on the degree of clubface manipulation needed at impact fix to produce a straighaway flight. So the only difference is that being a true swinger, you use ball location to produce straightaway flight, while a manipulated hands swinger uses clubface adjustment before making the swing to produce straightaway flight.
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Bumpy

I like your last paragraph except that in a hand manipulated swing - you would not only set up with a flat and vertical left wrist at impact fix but you need to get back to that flat and vertical left wrist at impact (or whatever grip type you are using) - via whatever hinge action/motion you are planning for - so there's an awareness/control of how you arrive at impact(however subtle), and your planning for that as you address the ball or as Yoda says rehearsing.
See the Glossary Quote below

FLAT AND VERTICAL FLAT LEFT WRIST Example – Left hand Karate Chop.
Mechanical – The Paddlewheel blade relationships as vertical to its axis of rotation and vertical to its plane of rotation.
Golf – Positioning the Left Wrist to be vertical to its Left Shoulder Axis and to its Associated Plane during Impact.

The manipulated swinger identifies a certain impact lead hand location and condition (impact fix)Note: doesn't need to start the swing there - and returns to that hand location. Two aspects - set-up and impact. Much like most the book in regards to certain concepts - he doesn't differentiate items very well - expects you to understand it - in that the definition above - it would be for a manipulated swinger or hitter - not a True Swinger. There's a reason for that - the True Swinger is more of just a side note for him, an observation of a possibility more than anything.

The True swinger as you note is just concerned about ball location in relation to the rotating pivot - further back of straight away ball location - fades, further forward draws. Doesn't matter what grip is taken because CF will automatically align the clubface. That's the theory.

Tong's quote is correct in that you are not manipulating your hands in funky ways during the swing - but incorrect in that you are in whatever subtle way - making sure you arrive at impact in a certain way with your lead hand and your overall sense of the clubface is something that would have part of your awareness no matter how subtle (you don't get carried away with it to an extreme). The True swinger wouldn't need to worry about clubface or lead hand position.

Not an easy thing to differentiate because we are talking about your mind's area of focus, whether subtle or ingrained. More interesting theory than practical application IMO.