Checking for On Plane Clubshaft
 

When the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground, the Clubshaft should also be parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane.

What is the answer to the apparent discrepancy that the Wristcock occurs on the plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge? Is Bending the Left Wrist the only way possible?

We can't have it both ways can we?

Per 10-2-B, make sure your left thumb is 'aft' and you have some 'gap' between your left thumb and index finger.

Without the gap, you can't do it, you would need to bend the left wrist.

Edz, your response is very much appreciated. Are you saying that you can cock the left wrist on the plane of the left arm flying wedge and inclined plane at the same time?

The 'gap' in the thumb is effectively the difference between the left arm flying wedge and 'the plane'.

The left thumb is 'on plane' for the most part (PP#1). While the left arm/flying wedge is basically 'a bit above' plane'.

Think of 'hugging the plane' - it stays between your arms.

But Ed, the left arm wedge forms a flat plane that runs the length of the left arm and clubshaft. How can you cock on the plane of the left arm flying wedge and the inclined plane at the same time?

Which plane was HK referring to (inclined or left arm wedge) when he wrote that for the swinger, the #3 pressure point is directly opposed to the On Plane loading Action of the Secondary Lever Assembly?

No trick question here. I went out to try Mathews procedures he posted in the "Spheres" thread and found that cocking the left wrist on the plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge was a superior procedure to cocking the left wrist on the inclined plane. He confirmed and agreed. So did HK mean the left arm plane or inclined plane?

The left arm wedge is 'against' the plane, the left wrist cock is 'on' the plane.

Anatomically flat allows this. Visually flat does not, which is why it is technially an 'arched' position. Of course grip type comes into play.

ED,

Something is wrong here.

see 10-13-D #2 for "the plane"

I know what you're saying Ed. I see it too. The Clubshaft can lie flat on the inclined plane and keep its’ radial alignment hence, left arm flying wedge undisturbed.

However, and this is the, Big however. Although the Clubshaft can lie flat on the inclined plane, the left wrist must cock and bend to keep the Clubshaft On Plane while cocking AND still keep the radial alignment of the left arm flying wedge. Otherwise, if the left wrist remains flat during the cocking motion, the Clubshaft will leave the inclined plane while cocking on the Plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge and not disturb its alignment.

In other words, the Left Wrist can Cock on the Inclined Plane or on the plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge, but not both at the same time unless you have a Bent Left Wrist.

In his thread “Spheres…” Mathew said:

Mathew says that letting the shaft leave the inclined plane to maintain a flat left wrist and radial alignment with the left arm flying wedge is a superior procedure.

I’m trying to confirm whether the above statement by Mathew is correct. I went out to the range yesterday and tried both procedures with 200 balls. I found the above statement true. I went to the range today and hit 100 balls. Again, I found the above statement true. I think it is a superior procedure. In fact I’ve never hit the ball better. Best sound I ever heard, best #4 pressure point I’ve ever had, and best feel of #2 & #3 release motions I’ve ever had. I guess Homer would say, “Have at it”.


That’s why I started this thread and asked the question: Which plane do you think HK was referring to in 7-3? The inclined plane or the left arm flying wedge plane? I’ve read it dozens of times :read: and I agree that he was referring to the inclined plane.

Has anyone else tried this procedure?

So, Between, Lynn, Ted, the Edz drills and that statement from Mathew, my impact has never been better, though I’m still a little foggy. What a great place this web-site is……. :occasion:

Daryl,where does it say in the book the left arm flying wedge IS THE PLANE LINE?.Now you've got me confused!.I always took it that the HANDS AND THE CLUBHEAD DEFINE THE PLANE.Iknow it says in6-B-3-O-1"the entire left arm ,the clubshaft and the back of the left hand are always positioned against the same flat plane-[i]the plane of the left wristcock motion.IALWAYS THOUGHT THIS WAS NOT THE INCLINED PLANE THAT THE HANDS TRAVEL ON -BECAUSE OF THE SHOULDER ROTATION.:think:

I was confused, but not anymore. Sorry for making it confusing.

Question:

If the wrist cock motion keeps the clubshaft and left arm on the same flat plane, and, the left arm is not on the inclined plane, then how does the clubshaft stay on the inclined plane when cocking?

Answer: It doesn't.

PS. if I said that the Left Arm Flying Wedge was the Plane Line then it was a misprint.

Daryl,the hands and clubface define the plane.The left entire left arm, clubshaft and the back of the left hand are always positioned against the same flat plane -NOT IMO "THE "PLANE ,but "their" own flat plane.Because of the space between the left shoulder and the centre of the pivot ,rotation moves the left shoulder off plane-but Homer never referred to the plane (well only briefly)in terms of the left shoulder.I think I understand what you are getting at -the hands and clubshaft cannot be on plane if the left arm flying wedge is not on plane.Hmmmmm-Ithink they can ......GO FOR IT MATE:occasion:

G'day Mate.

Here it goes. I think I found the answers. Get your dowels out.

Query:

If the wrist cock motion keeps the Clubshaft and left arm on the same flat plane, the plane of the Left Arm Flying Wedge, and, if the left arm is not on the inclined plane, then how does the Clubshaft stay on the inclined plane when cocking?

Statements:

I know, only by reading HK, that the left arm and Clubshaft must be on the same plane; the Plane of the Left Wrist Cock. Otherwise you destroy the Left Arm Flying Wedge.
6 -B-3-O-1. "…the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the Left Hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane - the plane of the Left Wristcock motion.”

The above statement seems to conflict with the following statement:

HK said that: 2-F. “Whenever the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the baseline of the Inclined Plane..” “Otherwise, the end of the club that is closest to the ground must be pointing at the base line of the inclined plane – or extension of that line, even if they must be extended to the horizon.”

If you put a club in your left hand and keep the Clubshaft on plane with your left arm, you can’t have it parallel to the baseline of the inclined plane when it is horizontal to the ground nor can you point either end of the Clubshaft at the base line of the inclined plane and have the Clubshaft lying flat against the inclined plane unless you bend your left wrist. Bent Visually or Geometrically.

I always thought that the Clubshaft and hands had to lie flat against the Inclined Plane. Every time we see an inclined plane board such as all of those in the little yellow book and those we’ve constructed ourselves and the Circle Tube Planes that you can purchase from any practice aid web-site has reinforced this generally agreed FACT, that being On Plane Means That The Clubshaft Lies Flat Against, On, or In, the Inclined Plane.

And, to make things worse, 2-N-0. “AS LONG AS THE CLUBSHAFT HOLDS A STRAIGHT LINE ELATIONSHIP TO A STRAIGHT LINE – POINTING AT A STRAIGHT LINE.” Which reaffirms 2-F.

Solution:

In his thread “Left Arm Flying Wedge and Plane” by Tongzilla on 1-14-2006

Tong asked if the left arm flying wedge was parallel to the plane. In post # 26, annikan skywalker almost had the answer but the thread was never finished. No conclusions were agreed on. No solution. But he hinted that Only with a Rotated Shoulder Turn, on a Square Shoulder Plane and when the waist bend is at enough angle so that the shoulders will be on plane while turning, will you have the Left Arm Flying Wedge and Wristcock lie on the same flat Inclined Plane.

What defines the Plane? It passes through the Ball and whatever one of the five reference points you decide to use. Elbow, Turned Shoulder, Squared Shoulder, Turning Shoulder or Hands Only.

What goes up, back and in on plane and down, forward and out on plane?
Hands and their pressure points. Not the Clubshaft if you want to keep your left arm flying wedge.

Your hands and pressure points travel along the inclined plane as PP#3 traces its straight base line helping the Left Arm Flying Wedge to keep the Clubshaft pointing at it. :occasion: (See correction below)

The clubshaft does not need to lie flat on the incline plane (turned shoulder) to be pointing at the baseline of the inclined Turned Shoulder Plane. It has its own relationship with the baseline of the inclined plane (the Left Arm Flying Wedge).

I didn’t know that.

Correction: With flatter (flatter than square shoulder) plane angles the clubshaft will point to a line parallel but outside the base line of the inclined plane.

Added 5/24/2006

More information: The club stays on its own angle during the backstroke and downstroke and the #3 pressure point travels up and down the incline plane raising and lowering the clubshaft.

This is different than what Ben Doyle said in his video, "How to build a G.O.L.F. swing", that the clubshaft changes its angle (gets steeper) during the backswing.
So, the Left Arm Flying Wedge has its own plane (with the Clubshaft). The baseline of this plane moves away (out) from the base line of the inclined plane from Impact Fix to the top (or end) of the backstroke, then moves in toward the base line of the inclined plane during the downstroke.

I believe that the hands and clubshaft can be on the turned shoulder plane even though the left arm is not.So I suppose I am saying that the plane of the left arm flying wedge is not the same as the inclined plane but the hands and clubshaft are on both-they intersect at the hands-the #3PP.:eyes:

Help YODASLUKE!

I agree that both planes intersect at the #3 pressure point. But the Left arm flying wedge requires a flat left wrist so that the clubshaft, wristcock, and left arm lie in the same flat plane.

You agree they intersect which implies two planes.

Oh, I see. Calling in the Big Guns. :toothy: :toothy: :toothy:

No -If I thought there were two planes I would say so .I think they intersect but the hands/clubshaft are subject to the rotation of the shoulders which takes the left arm "off plane"-but it has it's "own plane"which is not the inclined plane of the right forearm.An argument could be made that you would have to bend the left wrist to keep the back of the left hand parallel to the plane-and Homer did not dismiss this so long as you get it flat at impact.If the left wrist stays flat throughout the swing then I would say that it is the #3pp that can stay on the intersection of the "two planes"but that is still the selected plane -back- in -up- down -out- forward.Or for example the turned shoulder plane:think: o.k. where are THE BIG GUNS!:occasion:

Daryl-can't believe I beat you to it!.Another point,I believe the #3accumulator roll is the answer-or at least #3 acc.The right forearm is on plane at address and impact .The left arm retains acc#3.The left arm is never on plane -except when the waist bend is such that the shoulder turn is on plane in both directions(mostly putting).pp#3 is always on plane.:lurk:

It's frustrating. All I want is to hit the ball better. I'm plaqued by the thought that if I know and understand more, I'll get better. It works with everything else. I don't know if anything I wrote earlier is taking me closer or farther from the mechanics involved.

However, there is no doubt in my mind as to the correctness of 6-B-3-0-1. Also I have no doubt in my mind what defines the “Inclined Plane”. And, if 6-B-3-0-1 is true, then the entire Primary Lever would need to lie flat against the inclined plane. That’s my dilemma.

I’m convinced that if we dissect the swings of everyone on this site, we’ll see something a little different. On the other hand, when viewing a swing from down-the-line, the acid test (on this site too) is drawing a straight line from the ball through the right shoulder (at the top of the swing) and examining whether or not the Clubshaft lies flat against it. I understand the validity of this test and I agree with its purpose. I can make the Clubshaft lie flat on the inclined plane and have a flat and cocked left wrist. I just can’t do it while cocking or uncocking the left wrist and comply with 6-B-3-0-1. So, What am I missing?

Where are the big Guns? They’re waiting. Do you see my new Avatar? I’m getting ready for their arrival. LOL. :laughing9 :laughing9 :laughing9

Come on you big guns!:laughing9

Forever Difference'!
 

Just in tonight, Daryl. For now, just know...

The perpendicular plane of the Left Wrist Cock Motion and the inclined plane of the Clubhead (Sweetspot) Line of Flight are two different things!

headache!!!!
 

Good Lord... You guys are giving me down-thread blackout. Let's keep it simple for a few posts. But, I do LOVE the avatar. P.S. I'm wearing my helmet, "like my momma always said".

Let's start with a Turned Shoulder Plane (10-6-B). Can we all look at the pictures, #1 and #2. If her Right Shoulder is moving to the plane with a Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn. Then, logic would say that the Left Shoulder is moving away. #2 would certainly show that the entire Left Arm Flying Wedge is not on plane.
At Top, we have the Right Shoulder, the #3 PP, the Clubshaft, and the Sweetspot on plane. The Left Shoulder nor the Left Arm have a chance to be on the Turned Shoulder Plane.

As you posted...6-B-3-O-1. "…the entire Left Arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the Left Hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane - the plane of the Left Wristcock motion.” Not, against the same Turned Shoulder Plane. :eyes:

Don't get the plane of the Left Wristcock motion and the Turned Shoulder Plane confused.

the other big gun...
 

Well, while I was typing my post, Yoda beat me to the punch. At least, we made the same point. It makes me feel better. :)

Not sure if this is what you mean but if not could you show us?

Great post Strav!This is what I was trying to explain to Daryl -that the two planes referred to in 6-B-3-0-1 are different -but the common ground is the hands and clubshaft.Thanks also Yoda & Luke:hello2:

I can imagine Daryl at this moment, mirrors ,dowels,plane board,flashlight........:laughing9 :toothy: :think:

Right you are Mate,

First; let me say that I've never hit the ball better since the school at Old Waverly and 6-B-3-0-1. I’m impressed, and I don’t get impressed easily.

I can make the Clubshaft lie flat on the inclined plane and have a flat and cocked left wrist. I just don’t understand how to comply with 2-F while cocking or un-cocking the left wrist and comply with 6-B-3-0-1.

Using your left hand, choke down 12” on a 48” dowel and use your right hand to clamp the end of the dowel to your left forearm (6-B-3-0-1). Get into your startup posture. Swing the dowel back until your Left hand is on the face of the Turned Shoulder Plane. Does the dowel lie flat against the Turned Shoulder Plane? Keep moving until the dowel is horizontal to the ground (2-F). Is the dowel parallel to the baseline of the inclined plane?

When I comply with 6-B-3-0-1, at the start down a small hip slide moves my right shoulder down-plane and increases the pressure in #4 and #3 PP’s. I have the “Heavy (but almost effortless) Hit”. Short and long strokes. I think my name should be embroidered on my bag on the face of a pocket where my $ winnings are kept.

Only with a Rotated Shoulder Turn, on a Square Shoulder Plane (and when the waist bend is at enough angle so that the shoulders will be on plane while turning) will you comply with 2-F and 6-B-3-0-1 simultaneously.

Thanks Strav.

This closely illustrates my point. :hello2:

My interpretation: :question:

The left model swing complies with 6-B-3-0-1. The right model swing Complies with 2-F by using a bent left wrist.

Could it be that the unskilled player simply starts down and stays on the red Plane while Hogan shifts to the green?

Time to give it a rest.

I need a week off from this. I need to find a new approach to the problem.

See you all next week.

Thanks for all of your help, it's greatly appreciated.

Lines
 

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Is the green line in the model on the left... the path of the HANDS? The guy on the right looks like he might be one of the TURNING SHOULDER VERSIONS?

Porch Light Time For Daryl
 

Thank you, Daryl, for all of your posts these past few weeks. I have read every one, and in addition to the brainpower evident in each, your passion for TGM oozes from every sentence.

Great stuff!

Enjoy your Memorial Day weekend, but hurry back. I'm already having withdrawal symptoms, and I swear I can hear Neil walking the floor!

I think we have been talking about two different things -Iknow I have.My point is that whatever plane you are on whether you shift or not -the hands trace the planeline.And the left arm is not on that inclined plane for most of the stroke.Have a good weekend -Especially Daryl:book:

I'm confused Lagster,the hands are on the green line-no?:think:

But doesn't the shoulder rotation mean that one creates the other?.If I take a dowel in my left hand and grip it halfway down ,take it to the top ,cock my wrist- I am on plane.If I then bend my wrist this does not move the dowel "off plane"-it just rotates.Thats why I stated that whilst the plane of the left wristcock is not the inclined plane ,the hands and the clubshaft are the plane but the left arm,depending on which point in the swing -(but Daryl did say at the top)-is not on plane.:BangHead:

In a correct swing, should they share a common plane line?

Green Line
 

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That's what it looks like to me. In the picture of the robot-man... the hands appear to be on the green line, and the clubhead and shaft on the red line. The green line is pointing well inside the baseline of the inclined plane.

I was refering to the Hogan picture.The Robot man picture is mis leading because the green line represents -what?.The picture of robot man on the right is IMO NOT unskilled in terms of the hands and clubshaft being on plane.In the left hand graphic the view seems to be from in front of the line and I believe the the green line is meant to be the path of the hands which,if you were to rotate so you were looking down the line would lie on the red line.If anyone is saying that the hands can be on one plane and the clubshaft on another,then they are mistaken.