Aligning the Clubface

[O.B.Left]

I don't have access to my main library to give you any Homer notes to support his view. I personally feel that there is plenty of force that you can create that wouldn't require loosened wrists to allow CF to control the face. Secondly, I'm pretty sure that he writes with True Swinging there is only one ball location for any particular club for straight away ball flight (not that I agree) - so if you could change your ball location with any particular club and still hit a straight shot without much work - then I would think that may be a test to confirm that you are not a true swinger. I think I recall him saying that a True Swinger would be a rare bird - can't verify that now though.

What the heck is in your main library? Jealous. Can I visit?

Re "not that I agree". In the book if i remember correctly, true swinging aligns the clubface . But ive read posts where Lynn says it aligns all three functions of the club ; face ,head , shaft. To me meaning .... if the face is open or closeed for a ball not posltioned correctly for the true swing (given the manufactures designed in hook face ) and assuming the path is straight , a straight shot can not be produced. But to me this , as i alluded to earlier, this is theoretical more than practical. Not irrelevant by any means. It exists as a far end of a spectrum . Like total darkness or total brightness ... you know like Daryl. God I love those crazy guys, Mike O, Bucket and Daryl .... total brilliance. Get your shades on.

I just see manipulations of all kinds ... by the worst and the best in world. We all manipulating .

[HungryBear]

Typically . But guys like Luke teach Hitting with Horizontal . Go figure. The compensation being a deeper right elbow . The advantage being better compression no leakage. Per 2-C whatever drawing.

Similarly Hogan swung with Angled , sometimes, not always , didnt always swing left , hold it off. I mean every good golfer can manipulate the face right? The ball response is physics only.

One major difficulty with horizontal hinging and hitting.
Rotating pressure point #1 . Because the thrust is on plane, the rotation at point of appplication is disruptive for me.

HB

[O.B.Left]

One major difficulty with horizontal hinging and hitting.
Rotating pressure point #1 . Because the thrust is on plane, the rotation at point of appplication is disruptive for me.

HB

Left hand , club face . Right hand club head. Hitting the right arm drives the primary lever , left arm and club shaft. Meaning the left arm fans open on the way back and fans closed on the way down , but by right arm power. Linear force diverted into angular motion or whatever . The patio door is closed by an inline rod.

But yes generally speaking youre fighting the physics to some degree ..unless you get your right elbow deeper into a side armed skipping stones motion. IMO. The right elbows position has its effect. Back for inline thrusting , deeper for a more throwing like motion which will tend towards Horizontal . the physics of the motion begets the elbow position , naturally.

[Mike O]

What the heck is in your main library? Jealous. Can I visit?

Re "not that I agree". In the book if i remember correctly, true swinging aligns the clubface . But ive read posts where Lynn says it aligns all three functions of the club ; face ,head , shaft. To me meaning .... if the face is open or closeed for a ball not posltioned correctly for the true swing (given the manufactures designed in hook face ) and assuming the path is straight , a straight shot can not be produced. But to me this , as i alluded to earlier, this is theoretical more than practical. Not irrelevant by any means. It exists as a far end of a spectrum . Like total darkness or total brightness ... you know like Daryl. God I love those crazy guys, Mike O, Bucket and Daryl .... total brilliance. Get your shades on.

I just see manipulations of all kinds ... by the worst and the best in world. We all manipulating .

Sounds good to me OB

[Mike O]

[quote=Daryl;93621]

The Shaft has Two alignments. Vertical and Forward Angle. Most all Golf Clubs are designed by the Manufacturer so when the Shaft is Vertical (0 degree Lean) and aligned at a Precise Plane Angle (Length of Shaft), the clubface is aligned to the Target Line (Leading Edge and Lie Angle). Confusing to me - However I think I got it - the vertical alignment is from the face on perspective if you are observing a golfer - how the shaft relates to vertical. What you call the Forward Angle is the Lie angle- the down the line view in relation to the horizontal. However the shaft can lean forward of vertical - at a certain lie angle - and still have the clubface aligned to the target. Your post implies to me that only when vertical will the face be aligned to the target.

Three Intersecting Points in Space are needed. One is determined by Shaft Length (distance from the Hub - Plane Angle), One by Shaft Lean ("0" degrees from the Hub is a given by most - Trajectory! (not Loft))What's the differentiation you are making between Trajectory and not loft in this section? and "Target Line" (Direction - the Wild Card). I'm not sure how plane angle would affect low point - please explain? Also, I can see how directly under the HUB would determine lowpoint but changing the plane angle - I don't see that changing lowpoint by itself. HK had a name for this Geometry. He named it "Low Point". And, descriptive of the Alignment setting connecting the Shaft to the Clubface he termed "Hookface". Please define "alignment setting" - simple and short will do. In an Elastic Collision, Low Point Impact produces Straight-away Flight. The Angle of Approach at Low Point is "0". Homer Kelley differentiates a "True Swinger" always uses the Inherent Angle of Approach, "0". But that's only the result. Read on to learn the cause, the really fascinating difference between a True Swinger and Hands Manipulated Swinger.

But HK knew that Collisions in Golf are not Elastic. The Golf Ball has resilience. The Ball, for it to respond to an Angular Force as though it were struck by a Linear Force, requires the Golfer to Sustain the Line of Compression (sustain the line until it can be aligned to the target - rotated). The Golf Ball will only stay deformed against the club-face for so long, and that changes per clubhead speed (because the ball doesn't change).

Now, the "Magic". Shorter Clubs have a more vertical Angle of Approach, Angle of approach is a line of the ground - do you mean a sharper angle of approach or do you mean a more vertical angle of attack? giving an increase closing Ratio.... which compensates for the slower clubhead speed (lees time on the ball). So, A True Swinger does not Change the Right Forearm Angle of Approach to Manipulate the Line of Compression for changes in Ball Location.

"True Swinger" is more concept than reality and I do agree with you on this point (and many others except for "California" and your over-use of "Pharmacological Remedies"). "True Swinger" is like a control sample. It's always "0" - "0" - "0" and Low Point Impact. But for a Hands Manipulated Swinger it's about "Degrees". Each Ball Location distance away from Low Point needs more Manipulation. So, comparing the Hands Manipulated Swinger to the True Swinger gives us the same reference geometry so we can quantify when we talk about the Angle of Approach.

Call me slow but your post didn't answer my questions for me. You have to keep it simple for me. See my questions above in your post/quote. I need to determine your frame of reference, hence the questions before I can understand if it matches mine.

1) In the original post where I added in red - "for straight shots only" - Was that a correct perspective from your viewpoint? Yes Or No

[Mike O]

[quote=Daryl;93615]

So vary the "Low Point" or "re-align the Club". "True" vs. "Manipulated". In other words, "change your Alignment" or "Change the Clubs Alignment". It's all about choices. HK says the Golf Swing has many choices.

(all of this is readily explained and demonstrated in my video series - soon to be released)

I think if you describe how you vary the low point and also how you re-align the club (shaft?, face?) It would help me understand your posts.

[Mike O]

Daryl,
What would be your simple and short definition of a True Swinger- that is the essential characteristic?

[Mike O]

Daryl, Mike O, O.B.Left
Here is what I need clarified:
As I understand it- HK said swinger uses Horizontal Hinging, Hitters use angled hinging. If the hitter uses other than angled or the swinger uses other than horizontal there is manipulation.
Is that your understanding?

HB

No offense but I think both OB and Daryl's response to your post would create more confusion and doesn't address the issue.

If my post does not make sense then please ask additional questions.

It's crucial that you have clear definitions to your terms or chaos will be created. Hand Manipulation is defined as having the intent or some awareness of returning to impact at a pre-selected lead hand alignment to control the clubface alignment. For example let's use flat, level and vertical. Now use that bolded definition whenever you see the term "Manipulation" in the Golfing Machine. Equally you should have specific definitions for all of the other terms and concepts in the Golfing Machine - if you can't produce them - you (not you HB but anyone reading this which would include you) need to determine what they are.

So HB regardless of your understanding or intent of your question - if you were someone else reading it - here is the problem inherent in your question. It implies that a swinger with horizontal hinge action would not have manipulation (read the post and see that perspective). Regardless, let's clarify that - that the swinger can have horizontal hinging and have hand manipulation - that's the manipulative swinger that he talks about. Whether your intent or not - your question implies that the definition of "Manipulation" is doing something that doesn't come naturally - and that's not the context nor the definition of the term as he uses it.

Finally as a side note - when you say Swingers usehorizontal hinging and Hitters use angled hinging, for those trying to understand these concepts I would be more precise and say that Horizontal hinging is inherent in a swinging procedure and angled hinging is inherent in a hitting procedure - they are products of the physics. Now, if you performed something other than the inherent - say vertical hinging then I would say "for that particular swing the swinger used vertical hinging." In the context of your question to me "used" implies a willful choice to employ something or a manual control not normally employed - something other than the given.

Don't take my post wrong - I'm trying to be very clear with my answers in hopes it will help you. I'm tearing it up, chewing it and spitting it out. No intent to tear you up- just the opposite I'm spending alot of time trying to do justice to your question.

[O.B.Left]

Daryl, Mike O, O.B.Left
Here is what I need clarified:
As I understand it- HK said swinger uses Horizontal Hinging, Hitters use angled hinging. If the hitter uses other than angled or the swinger uses other than horizontal there is manipulation.
Is that your understanding?

HB

Instead of "uses" I think Homer would say something like .... the physics of swinging "tends" towards Horizontal etc. True Swinging he believed , produced Horizontal time and again .

Manipulations are not necessarily dynamic ones.... Grip Rotation 7-2 if memory serves , is a manipulation. So those who square the face before taking their grip for balls played fore and aft in the stance have manipulated the face.

[Mike O]

Manipulations are not necessarily dynamic ones.... Grip Rotation 7-2 if memory serves , is a manipulation. So those who square the face before taking their grip for balls played fore and aft in the stance have manipulated the face.

OB and others - here again IF YOU DO NOT DEFINE YOUR TERMS - confusion will result. Grip Rotation IS NOT "Manipulation". If it were - you'd want to provide your definition of "manipulation" that would subsume all of the instances used in the book.

Let's give people a break for a minute - the book is terribly written - so you have a "get out of jail free card" - for not understanding some of the concepts. With that said - people go for years on these forums having no clue of the concepts - it requires some effort, motivation and precision if you want to understand what he is saying.

BOOK QUOTE-In red are my additional comments for clarification. I've highlighted in Orange his sections that my red highlighed comments refer to.
THE GRIP

7-2 GRIP TYPES Each Grip Type employs a different Hand-to-Basic-Plane relationship (2-G) and can be applied to any Basic Grip – by Hitters only – Active Lag Pressure (6-C-2-0). Because for Impact Clubface alignment control, Hitters should rotate their Grip (That is to clearly identify where you want to arrive at impact you should always have a vertical lead hand when you grip the club - becuase that is readily identified. So from your straight away ball location if you move the ball back to create a draw by keeping the face at the target - draw becuase now you have more divergence between the clubhead path and the face (clubhead more more to the right as you move it back on the circle). Also, note the shaft will be leaning more forward at this new location before and after you grip the club - so at this new location you make sure that you grip the club with a vertical (karate chop) lead hand. Let's note one difference here so you understand the picture that I am painting - if you grip the club at lowpoint - below the left shoulder with the shaft and the left arm vertical - then the vertical (karate chop) back of the lead hand faces the target - as you move the ball back and grip the club with the vertical left hand - the back of the hand faces more to the right of the targetbut not their Plane Line at Address (3-F-5, 7-, while (True)Swingers should rotate their Plane Line but not their Grip (7-1, 6-B-3-0). For (True)Swingers the results of Ball Location changes on any one Plane Line are the opposite of those for Hitters (and Manipulative Swingers). Unless, of course, there is Hand manipulation – intentional or unintentional (Notice the separation he's making here - above he's talked about grip rotation - now he's making a separate statement regarding something else - Hand Manipulation - see my definition in my previous post). Then both procedures will have Hitting alignments and Ball response. And be Ball-related rather than Body-related.

Now, if someone has an interest in learning this section - feel free to ask questions and work from my perspective - until you uncover an inconsistency in my perspective. That's the approach. At least that's how I learned the Golfing Machine - I looked for inconsistencies - I said OK if I run with you in regards to that particular idea - then what does this mean over here, kept learning pieces and then if related pieces didn't match - ask additional questions. Crucially important is using Homer Kelley's approach and phrase - "You must maintain the identies of these things" and then they don't change - they are the same no matter what - that's true no only for the laws of force and motion but equally true for the concepts that you use and their associated definitions.

So my approach would be to not take your perspective - and then ignore the other persons post or think OH he's wrong there. At least some of the time you need to run with the other persons logic and then see if it runs into contradictions.

If one were really wanting to understand this section - later - we'd need to continue through the paragraphs of 7-2, a beautiful opportunity for someone that wants to understand it.