SEQUENTIAL LEARNING VS. DYNAMIC LEARNING

[lagster]

There seem to be two major schools of thought in learning golf.
#1 Sequential... Leadbetter's Links, TGM's Chapter 12-5, The Eight Step Swing, etc..

#2 Dynamic... The motion is not broken so much into segments, but is taught as a whole... Gravity Golf, AJ(Secret Revealed), DeLaTorre's teaching, I think is mostly as a whole swing concept, etc..

Payne Stewart would not think of positions, I am told. Couples, and I think Nicklaus are similar also.

Tiger and many others do use positions, or stages.

Do you think some people are better suited to one or the other, due to their learning style? Can TGM be taught as a dynamic whole from the start... with much success?

[6bmike]

There seem to be two major schools of thought in learning golf.
#1 Sequential... Leadbetter's Links, TGM's Chapter 12-5, The Eight Step Swing, etc..

#2 Dynamic... The motion is not broken so much into segments, but is taught as a whole... Gravity Golf, AJ(Secret Revealed), DeLaTorre's teaching, I think is mostly as a whole swing concept, etc..

Payne Stewart would not think of positions, I am told. Couples, and I think Nicklaus are similar also.

Tiger and many others do use positions, or stages.

Do you think some people are better suited to one or the other, due to their learning style? Can TGM be taught as a dynamic whole from the start... with much success?

There are no positions in TGM. Homer refers to geometry, when you read the prefix, as motion. Not fixed lines but MOTION.


The book as a guide has to make references the three zones and the 24 components. No other way to write a book but .... TGM is not a method to teach. AIs make decisions on teaching.
The geometry is motion, fixed positions could never work except one: hold the finish and smile.

[Martee]

For some time I have argued with myself regarding this statement, TGM is a catalog, not a method or style. It has been said many times in defense of the book, etc.

Granted the book first 11 chapters are in fact a catalog, a description, etc. but none really meat the definition of a style or method.

Now Chapter 12 provides two stroke patterns (Hitting/12-1 and Swinging/12-2) which define a golf stroke style. Take 12-5-3, the method defined, how to teach either of those patterns.

In addition, throughout chapters 2 - 10 there are a number of drills and exercises to support Chapter 12.

TGM would in fact meet the standard definition of method and style regarding the golf stroke.

The application of the method and style is the bare bones, it does need the flesh and approach added to make it a polished product as well as personalized to both the instructor and student learning style and method of instruction.

A lot of golfers often have trouble understanding the difference between 'position' and 'alignment'. Explain the bent right wrist or flat left wrist, they see that as a position. The understanding of alignments often lack relationships and appear to be positions.

How it is actually taught and learned, Tom Stickney wrote an article a while back regarding the kinds of teachers and to more less the extent how golfers learn.

http://web.archive.org/web/200303121...r/stik0302.htm

IMO TGM has more than some give it credit for....

[Mike O]

For some time I have argued with myself regarding this statement, TGM is a catalog, not a method or style. It has been said many times in defense of the book, etc.

Granted the book first 11 chapters are in fact a catalog, a description, etc. but none really meat the definition of a style or method.

Now Chapter 12 provides two stroke patterns (Hitting/12-1 and Swinging/12-2) which define a golf stroke style. Take 12-5-3, the method defined, how to teach either of those patterns.

In addition, throughout chapters 2 - 10 there are a number of drills and exercises to support Chapter 12.

TGM would in fact meet the standard definition of method and style regarding the golf stroke.

The application of the method and style is the bare bones, it does need the flesh and approach added to make it a polished product as well as personalized to both the instructor and student learning style and method of instruction.

A lot of golfers often have trouble understanding the difference between 'position' and 'alignment'. Explain the bent right wrist or flat left wrist, they see that as a position. The understanding of alignments often lack relationships and appear to be positions.

How it is actually taught and learned, Tom Stickney wrote an article a while back regarding the kinds of teachers and to more less the extent how golfers learn.

http://web.archive.org/web/200303121...r/stik0302.htm

IMO TGM has more than some give it credit for....

Two excellent posts, one by Martee and one by 6BMike's that followed- Two posters that over the last couple of years have earned my respect. Just to throw my perspective and/or "my nitpicking"- not to take away from the overall post.

For Martee's post- Regardless of the number of drills/excercises real or implied- I'm pretty sure that Homer felt that the closest thing to a drill or excercise would be in 6-B-3- where he suggests that you use a flat surface and see that the release motions happen on plane- he really saw himself laying out the principles/groundwork and letting the AI's with their imagination come up with drills/excercises-"you guys are alot better at coming up with that kind of stuff than I am". He was anti drill in that regard in relation to how the book was written- certainly not anti drill in regards to learning the concepts. Just a little refinement to your post- in regards to how I would think Homer would interpret it.

6BMike- The "classic" patterns 12-1/12-2- touches on another pet peave of mine- that those sample patterns are somehow ideal, or hold a higher value than the other trillion patterns available. Much like the section of Martee's post that I commented on - your comment isn't wrong- you could easily call them classic- but just given the history of people's perception of the stroke patterns- and my perspective of how Homer would view them- just touches a nerve ending - and for those people that are "into" getting it right- I think it's an important clarification to make. It wasn't really until 1969 just before the book was published that he thought of putting stroke patterns in the book- Ben Doyle brought over a number (6 or so) PGA members for a week long class- Ben: "I'll have a group here next week!", that included Don Shaw. Only Ben and Don lasted the week- but as Homer told them all that there was millions or trillions of workable patterns- all the pros kept on wanting to just know "one"- you can imagine that many didn't want to understand all the theory- "Just tell us what to do"- or "Just tell us which one is better- i.e. horizontal hinging or angled hinging?"-out of that class came the concept of the stroke pattern- not the best one, nor the most classic, but just a stroke pattern- one of many possible ones. In fact in that regard- most if not all of Chapter 12 was the result of feedback from people Homer was working with- to put something in the book that isolated and pinpointed what he was trying to say- something specific. It wasn't his approach or wouldn't be his method of operation- for he was always looking at the principle and thought that the reader could apply it- in any number of situations- and certainly his fear of listing anything specific- or anything as an example that may too narrowly define or lead the reader into a implied specific location was warranted because that's what alot of people think when they look at the stroke patterns.

Thanks guys for letting me input the seemingly trivial stuff- You've allowed me to sleep peacefully now- off to bed!

[12 piece bucket]

Two excellent posts, one by Martee and one by 6BMike's that followed- Two posters that over the last couple of years have earned my respect. Just to throw my perspective and/or "my nitpicking"- not to take away from the overall post.

For Martee's post- Regardless of the number of drills/excercises real or implied- I'm pretty sure that Homer felt that the closest thing to a drill or excercise would be in 6-B-3- where he suggests that you use a flat surface and see that the release motions happen on plane- he really saw himself laying out the principles/groundwork and letting the AI's with their imagination come up with drills/excercises-"you guys are alot better at coming up with that kind of stuff than I am". He was anti drill in that regard in relation to how the book was written- certainly not anti drill in regards to learning the concepts. Just a little refinement to your post- in regards to how I would think Homer would interpret it.

6BMike- The "classic" patterns 12-1/12-2- touches on another pet peave of mine- that those sample patterns are somehow ideal, or hold a higher value than the other trillion patterns available. Much like the section of Martee's post that I commented on - your comment isn't wrong- you could easily call them classic- but just given the history of people's perception of the stroke patterns- and my perspective of how Homer would view them- just touches a nerve ending - and for those people that are "into" getting it right- I think it's an important clarification to make. It wasn't really until 1969 just before the book was published that he thought of putting stroke patterns in the book- Ben Doyle brought over a number (6 or so) PGA members for a week long class- Ben: "I'll have a group here next week!", that included Don Shaw. Only Ben and Don lasted the week- but as Homer told them all that there was millions or trillions of workable patterns- all the pros kept on wanting to just know "one"- you can imagine that many didn't want to understand all the theory- "Just tell us what to do"- or "Just tell us which one is better- i.e. horizontal hinging or angled hinging?"-out of that class came the concept of the stroke pattern- not the best one, nor the most classic, but just a stroke pattern- one of many possible ones. In fact in that regard- most if not all of Chapter 12 was the result of feedback from people Homer was working with- to put something in the book that isolated and pinpointed what he was trying to say- something specific. It wasn't his approach or wouldn't be his method of operation- for he was always looking at the principle and thought that the reader could apply it- in any number of situations- and certainly his fear of listing anything specific- or anything as an example that may too narrowly define or lead the reader into a implied specific location was warranted because that's what alot of people think when they look at the stroke patterns.

Thanks guys for letting me input the seemingly trivial stuff- You've allowed me to sleep peacefully now- off to bed!

Great post! I was waiting for you to make your presence felt in this thread. Thanks for the insight on Ch. 12.

Hope you don't wake up with bed head . . . or better yet a head in the bed.

[birdie_man]

Great post Mr. O! (Mike O)

Truly.

I like it. Very much in the "true spirit of The Golfing Machine" I think. (was that corny?)

[tongzilla]

The "classic" patterns 12-1/12-2- touches on another pet peave of mine- that those sample patterns are somehow ideal, or hold a higher value than the other trillion patterns available.

Out of the trillions of Patterns one could theoretically assemble, how many of those give an Uncompensated Stroke?

[mb6606]

The "classic" patterns 12-1/12-2- touches on another pet peave of mine- that those sample patterns are somehow ideal, or hold a higher value than the other trillion patterns available.


Not sure I agree Mike O. The further down the TGM path I venture the more I see the those patterns as uncompensated. Which would make them ideal for anyone physically able to perform them.

[birdie_man]

The "classic" patterns 12-1/12-2- touches on another pet peave of mine- that those sample patterns are somehow ideal, or hold a higher value than the other trillion patterns available.


Not sure I agree Mike O. The further down the TGM path I venture the more I see the those patterns as uncompensated. Which would make them ideal for anyone physically able to perform them.

I disagree.

There is no one golf swing...or two even.

They are a starting point. (and even then are debateable, apparently)

For an actual machine those would prolly be the most efficient strokes...

[6bmike]

For some time I have argued with myself regarding this statement, TGM is a catalog, not a method or style. It has been said many times in defense of the book, etc.

Granted the book first 11 chapters are in fact a catalog, a description, etc. but none really meat the definition of a style or method.

Now Chapter 12 provides two stroke patterns (Hitting/12-1 and Swinging/12-2) which define a golf stroke style. Take 12-5-3, the method defined, how to teach either of those patterns.

In addition, throughout chapters 2 - 10 there are a number of drills and exercises to support Chapter 12.

TGM would in fact meet the standard definition of method and style regarding the golf stroke.

The application of the method and style is the bare bones, it does need the flesh and approach added to make it a polished product as well as personalized to both the instructor and student learning style and method of instruction.

A lot of golfers often have trouble understanding the difference between 'position' and 'alignment'. Explain the bent right wrist or flat left wrist, they see that as a position. The understanding of alignments often lack relationships and appear to be positions.

How it is actually taught and learned, Tom Stickney wrote an article a while back regarding the kinds of teachers and to more less the extent how golfers learn.

http://web.archive.org/web/200303121...r/stik0302.htm

IMO TGM has more than some give it credit for....

I totally agree Martee.
I have always said that TGM is more than a catalog. Many claim the book is just a reference catalog. I think people who only see a catalog have narrow insight to the book. It is both a catalog and a system. Homer included two classics strokes- 12-1-1 and 12-2-0. Study TGM with Yoda and try to say you just learned the catalog portion of the book.

and...

Alignment golf sets the stroke in motion. The problem with (fixed) position golf is that it lacks the connection of the dots. There is so much between each position. It is like presenting a Broadway play using every third line of the script.