When using the TSP, assuming you want some elbow bend at impact, seems like you have a choice of having either the trail shoulder or forearm on the same plane as the shaft at impact. Which one is it? Why?
When using the TSP, assuming you want some elbow bend at impact, seems like you have a choice of having either the trail shoulder or forearm on the same plane as the shaft at impact. Which one is it? Why?
The second and third picture (from the left) are both correct. Just different body types and/or different amount of Axis Tilt.
You always want the entire Right Forearm (which includes the Right Elbow) to be On Plane at Impact giving you maximum support and minimizing Impact deceleration during this violent collision. This will almost certainly mean having the Right Shoulder slightly above Plane. There is absolutely no problem with that (10-13-D).
The more Right Elbow bend you have during Impact, the more likely you are using a shallower Plane Angle (e.g. Elbow Plane or Hands Only Plane), and the more above Plane your Right Shoulder becomes. When using the Turned Shoulder Plane, your Right Elbow should only have a slight bend at Impact, therefore your Right Shoulder will only be slightly above Plane.
The red line represents the Turned Shoulder Plane, which was drawn through the Right Shoulder joint when Lynn was at the Top. The tiny blue dot represents his Right Shoulder, which is clearly above Plane.
The more Right Elbow bend you have during Impact, the more likely you are using a shallower Plane Angle (e.g. Elbow Plane or Hands Only Plane), and the more above Plane your Right Shoulder becomes. When using the Turned Shoulder Plane, your Right Elbow should only have a slight bend at Impact, therefore your Right Shoulder will only be slightly above Plane.
Are you absolutely sure that this is a statement of fact or it is an opinion???....
Tom Watson had a lot of elbow bend and his plane angle wasn't shaloow...He shalllowed it out by a full sweep release and an increasing the amount of Axis Tilt...
As a matter of fact if you maintain too much right elbow bend it is difficult to get the right forearm pointing at the plane line during release and impact....
Are you absolutely sure that this is a statement of fact or it is an opinion???....
Tom Watson had a lot of elbow bend and his plane angle wasn't shaloow...He shalllowed it out by a full sweep release and an increasing the amount of Axis Tilt...
As a matter of fact if you maintain too much right elbow bend it is difficult to get the right forearm pointing at the plane line during release and impact....
It's opinion not fact, I'm just generalising. But remember I'm assuming that the Right Forearm is On Plane (as it should be), not above or below Plane, as a few of your photos show.
Would you agree or disagree? That in order to have the right forearm pointing on-plane as your assumption states...that the amount of right elbow bend depends on whether or not the right wrist is Uncocked(Tom Watson), Level(Mac O'Grady) or Cocked (Donna Andrews)....Also the degree of Waist Bend, Axit Tilt and Knee Bend along with numerous other factors greatly influence this alignment.....
checkout the pics...they are not an opinion and they are not in a random order at all.....As a matter of fact each picture was carefully selected and placed to reveal certain relatioship variations to the others....
Another interesting note...Plane Angle through Impact...
Would you agree or disagree? That inorder to have the right foream pointing on-plane as your assumption states...that the amount of right elbow bend depends on whether or not the right wrist is Uncocked(Tom Watson), Level(Mac O'Grady) or Cocked (Donna Andrews)....Also the degree of Waist Bend, Axit Tilt and Knee Bend along with numerous other factors greatly influence this alignment.....
Are you suggesting it's possible to get your Right Forearm On Plane without a Level Right Wrist? I don't see how that's possible.
The second and third picture (from the left) are both correct. Just different body types and/or different amount of Axis Tilt.
So it's OK to have a straight trail arm at Impact? Assuming an almost straight arm, what, if any, is the impact of having the Follow Through at such a short distance from impact?
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You always want the entire Right Forearm (which includes the Right Elbow) to be On Plane at Impact giving you maximum support and minimizing Impact deceleration during this violent collision. This will almost certainly mean having the Right Shoulder slightly above Plane. There is absolutely no problem with that (10-13-D).
This is what I've been after, thankyou. I'll take the always for whats it's worth I've read that one of the reasons that the TSP is so good is because the trail shoulder can provide support to the clubshaft. At what point does that occur, for how long and what is the benefit in terms of actual performance? My guess is it begins supporting at Start Down, continues to do so for as long as the shoudler remains on plane (usually as far as Release?) and I've no idea to what extent it improves consistancy, compression etc etc. Maybe it just helps a little in keeping the club on plane at Start Down
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The red line represents the Turned Shoulder Plane, which was drawn through the Right Shoulder joint when Lynn was at the Top. The tiny blue dot represents his Right Shoulder, which is clearly above Plane.
Interested in the location of your blue dot Tong. Is it always the bottom edge of the shoulder that TGM marks as the shoulder? Can you tell I'm no anatomy expert? Did you take into account the camera angle when you drew that TSP? I've got that clip and if I draw the line where you have it it is WELL below the shoulder at the Top. What am I missing?
Last edited by nevermind : 02-24-2006 at 10:44 PM.
Without giving up on having the above questions answered, I've got some more.
Questions so far have been in relation to a golfer with a zero shift downstroke on the TSP, now for one where the golfer shifts the clubshaft down to a flatter plane during the Downstroke. In that case, how long should you aim to keep the trail shoulder moving down plane(TSP)? Without a clue on the "how long", my guess is that golfers shifting down to a flatter clubshaft plane are likely to keep the trail shoulder going downplane(TSP) further into the Downstroke than those with the club on the TSP. Is that way off?
This is my understanding as it stands, still some work to be done. Ready to admit I'm prolly a long way from having a firm grasp on this.
When using the TSP on the Downstroke, you will almost certainly have the trail shoulder moving above plane before impact. That allows (or is it just coincidence?) the trail forearm to be on plane at impact without having a straight trail arm.
When using a flatter clubshaft plane, you can have the shoulder move down plane(TSP) all the way to impact and beyond and still have the trail forearm on plane with the shaft at impact with some elbow bend.
Without giving up on having the above questions answered, I've got some more.
Questions so far have been in relation to a golfer with a zero shift downstroke on the TSP, now for one where the golfer shifts the clubshaft down to a flatter plane during the Downstroke. In that case, how long should you aim to keep the trail shoulder moving down plane(TSP)? Without a clue on the "how long", my guess is that golfers shifting down to a flatter clubshaft plane are likely to keep the trail shoulder going downplane(TSP) further into the Downstroke than those with the club on the TSP. Is that way off?
This is my understanding as it stands, still some work to be done. Ready to admit I'm prolly a long way from having a firm grasp on this.
When using the TSP on the Downstroke, you will almost certainly have the trail shoulder moving above plane before impact. That allows (or is it just coincidence?) the trail forearm to be on plane at impact without having a straight trail arm.
When using a flatter clubshaft plane, you can have the shoulder move down plane(TSP) all the way to impact and beyond and still have the trail forearm on plane with the shaft at impact with some elbow bend.
When using a flatter Plane Angle, it's alright to have your Right Shoulder above Plane. Just make sure it's moving roughly parallel to your selected Clubshaft Plane. Your Right Shoulder should never be below Plane.
So it's OK to have a straight trail arm at Impact? Assuming an almost straight arm, what, if any, is the impact of having the Follow Through at such a short distance from impact?
No, you don't want to have a straight right arm before or during Impact unless you're striving for a "soft" Impact. Aim to have your Right Arm slightly bent (use some common sense here!). If it's bent too much, then maximum Clubhead Speed for that Stroke will not have been reached. If it's almost straight, you risk going into Angular Deceleration. So you want a bit of leeway.
Also, none of this matters if you don’t have your Right Forearm return to its Right Forearm Angle of Approach. That’s the by far the important thing. And it should determine the amount of bend you need. If in doubt, you want to build your pattern such that you can return to your Right Forearm Angle of Approach in the most consistent and powerful way as possible.
Originally Posted by nevermind
Interested in the location of your blue dot Tong. Is it always the bottom edge of the shoulder that TGM marks as the shoulder? Can you tell I'm no anatomy expert? Did you take into account the camera angle when you drew that TSP? I've got that clip and if I draw the line where you have it it is WELL below the shoulder at the Top. What am I missing?
I used the right shoulder joint to draw my dot. I didn't take into account the camera angle. I don't know how to do this, but if you can overlap the frame where Yoda is at the Top with the frame at Impact, it would be helpful.
I know I have left some questions unanswered because I just ain't got the time! I'm sure there are others out there who can help -- show yourselves!
I've read that one of the reasons that the TSP is so good is because the trail shoulder can provide support to the clubshaft. At what point does that occur, for how long and what is the benefit in terms of actual performance? My guess is it begins supporting at Start Down, continues to do so for as long as the shoudler remains on plane (usually as far as Release?) and I've no idea to what extent it improves consistancy, compression etc etc. Maybe it just helps a little in keeping the club on plane at Start Down 
Did you take into account the camera angle when you drew that TSP? I've got that clip and if I draw the line where you have it it is WELL below the shoulder at the Top. What am I missing?
Hybrid Mode
