Training the pivot.

[Toolish]

I have fought a flip for a long time...longer than I have known what a flip is.

I think it is tied into my pivot though. I don't flip on shorter shots, but when I get to full shots my pivot stalls and i run out of right arm as my right shoulder stops turning down and around through the ball. Therefore I flip it.

How can I train my pivot to keep going better? How does a problem like this tie into hand controlled pivot vs pivot controlled hands. I sense all the problem with my hands, but I think the pivot is the issue.

[mrodock]

I thought my flipping problem may have tied into pivot problems but I realized that the more aggressively I would pivot, the more I would flip. Now I don't know if this fact completely rules out that my pivot contributed to my flipping, but I do know how I was able to solve the flipping . . . I started paying attention to the fact I was overaccelerating from the top and almost immediately losing the lag pressure on pressure point #3 on full swings (not on short shots). I started working on acquired motion, really feeling PP #3 load in the backswing and maintaining that heavy feeling through impact. It was absolutely remarkable how different it felt. Once I videotaped this swing I realized that my newly acquired feel was not lying, I was indeed maintaining the lag pressure. I slowly increased my acceleration and my swing length and in about 5 minutes total I had transformed my action through the ball! It all started with REALLY feeling PP#3 load and remain loaded.

[powerdraw]

tools,
boy do i know where you are coming from. Another source could be a off plane issue. If right arm is coming in too high, one must flip to not miss the ball, remember, the plane is the boss. Leo kinda helped me out with training the pivot independantly for awhile, i was into Austin's pivot motion for awhile, although it is easy to take the bottle, at some point i think there is a pill to be swallowed about the pivot motion.
just my thoughts,
good luck

[comdpa]

I have fought a flip for a long time...longer than I have known what a flip is.

I think it is tied into my pivot though. I don't flip on shorter shots, but when I get to full shots my pivot stalls and i run out of right arm as my right shoulder stops turning down and around through the ball. Therefore I flip it.

How can I train my pivot to keep going better? How does a problem like this tie into hand controlled pivot vs pivot controlled hands. I sense all the problem with my hands, but I think the pivot is the issue.

Hi Toolish...

The first question you need to address is what causes the right arm to run out of gas.

The Cause

Per 7-13: "Keep that Right Shoulder not only "back" but also "down" (On Plane), or you will "run out of Right Arm" before the Hands reach Impact Position - an automatic Throwaway (7-14, 8-6)"

Running out of Right Arm simply means that the Right Arm straightens before impact.

The Effects

With a Roundhouse move, the Right Arm simply has to straighten in order for the clubhead to reach the ball because the Right Shoulder is not where it was at Impact Fix.

With a straight right arm at impact, you will per 2-P produce a "soft" Impact - a useful simplification no doubt, but one that you are most likely avoiding.

Further as a result of that Right Shoulder roundhousing, your Right Forearm will come into Impact too high - Hackersville - per 2-F.

The Golfing Machine is a Hands System but per 6-G-0: "Educated Hands can compensate for Off Line Hip and SHOULDER MOTION but only up to a point."

I emphasize SHOULDER MOTION.

9-1: "Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot."

12-3-0: "Note that no Zone #1 elements are listed - Educated Hands control the Pivot (9-1)."

One may find a contradiction between these three verses (7-13, 9-1 and 12-3-0), but hold on, I will get back to this.

You mention that you do not experience such problems for chips and pitches because for such strokes, the hands do not go to the Top or End position per 10-21-A/C respectively. Further, Pivot is not activated.

In 8-6 of the 3rd Edition, Mr. Kelley, says of the Top..."This is the first chance for Clubhead Throwaway to sneak in."
Read this with 7-13, "...Automatic Throwaway" in mind.

So what now?

Train the Hands or Pivot?

Per 9-0: "The Three Zones are a natural division of the action. Their identities must be maintained in teaching, practice and playing. And unless developed in SEQUENCE, a very weak "compensated" game is inevitable."

With all due respect, practitioners who say "just train the hands" or "just train the pivot" give only a side of the story.
Again, I refer to 9-0.

9-2: "Zone #3 can never be better than its Zones #1 and #2 support." This is blatant that Pivot Training must take place.

Again 9-2: "But don't delay moving on - Zones #2 and #3 must be coordinated as soon as feasible." This is blatant that Pivot Training is not the end-all of The Golfing Machine.

As I mentioned early, to reconcile the apparent contradiction between 7-12, 9-1, 12-3-0; think of it as...

1) Train the Pivot
2) Train the Hands
3) Let the Educated Hands control the Educated Pivot

In 12-5-1 and 12-5-2, training the Pivot merely entails one to stand 'still' per 10-12-D, thus not much training of the Pivot takes place except to stand still!

However in 12-5-3, Pivot Motion then comes into play.

Training the Pivot

In training my students, this is where the 'real' Pivot training begins, and it is simple really.

9-1 shows us what the Pivot components are:

Pivot
Shoulder Turn
Hip Turn
Hip Action
Knee Action
Foot Action

I recommend that you use the pictures in 9-1 as well as the pictures depicting YOUR pivot components as a guide to train your pivot.

For example, 10-13-A, Standard Shoulder Turn will show you how the shoulders are supposed to work if using that variation.

Thus, you use the pictures in 9-1 and YOUR variations as guideposts. Remember not to use your hands. Best to keep them behind your back in Zone #1 training. And then per Mr. Kelley's admonition...coordinate Zone #2 and #3 as soon as possible.

A Short-Cut

There is a 'short-cut' though in a form of a drill...

1. Take a Baseball grip per 10-1-B, making sure that your hands are at least 3 inches apart.

2. Make your normal swing or hit.

I shall not elaborate on this, but suffice to say, if your shots go long and straight with this drill, your divots point slightly right of the target line and you can see the proper blur of the Clubhead passage through Release per 8-0, you GOT IT!

[lagster]

Hi Toolish...

The first question you need to address is what causes the right arm to run out of gas.

The Cause

Per 7-13: "Keep that Right Shoulder not only "back" but also "down" (On Plane), or you will "run out of Right Arm" before the Hands reach Impact Position - an automatic Throwaway (7-14, 8-6)"

Running out of Right Arm simply means that the Right Arm straightens before impact.

The Effects

With a Roundhouse move, the Right Arm simply has to straighten in order for the clubhead to reach the ball because the Right Shoulder is not where it was at Impact Fix.

With a straight right arm at impact, you will per 2-P produce a "soft" Impact - a useful simplification no doubt, but one that you are most likely avoiding.

Further as a result of that Right Shoulder roundhousing, your Right Forearm will come into Impact too high - Hackersville - per 2-F.

The Golfing Machine is a Hands System but per 6-G-0: "Educated Hands can compensate for Off Line Hip and SHOULDER MOTION but only up to a point."

I emphasize SHOULDER MOTION.

9-1: "Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot."

12-3-0: "Note that no Zone #1 elements are listed - Educated Hands control the Pivot (9-1)."

One may find a contradiction between these three verses (7-13, 9-1 and 12-3-0), but hold on, I will get back to this.

You mention that you do not experience such problems for chips and pitches because for such strokes, the hands do not go to the Top or End position per 10-21-A/C respectively. Further, Pivot is not activated.

In 8-6 of the 3rd Edition, Mr. Kelley, says of the Top..."This is the first chance for Clubhead Throwaway to sneak in."
Read this with 7-13, "...Automatic Throwaway" in mind.

So what now?

Train the Hands or Pivot?

Per 9-0: "The Three Zones are a natural division of the action. Their identities must be maintained in teaching, practice and playing. And unless developed in SEQUENCE, a very weak "compensated" game is inevitable."

With all due respect, practitioners who say "just train the hands" or "just train the pivot" give only a side of the story.
Again, I refer to 9-0.

9-2: "Zone #3 can never be better than its Zones #1 and #2 support." This is blatant that Pivot Training must take place.

Again 9-2: "But don't delay moving on - Zones #2 and #3 must be coordinated as soon as feasible." This is blatant that Pivot Training is not the end-all of The Golfing Machine.

As I mentioned early, to reconcile the apparent contradiction between 7-12, 9-1, 12-3-0; think of it as...

1) Train the Pivot
2) Train the Hands
3) Let the Educated Hands control the Educated Pivot

In 12-5-1 and 12-5-2, training the Pivot merely entails one to stand 'still' per 10-12-D, thus not much training of the Pivot takes place except to stand still!

However in 12-5-3, Pivot Motion then comes into play.

Training the Pivot

In training my students, this is where the 'real' Pivot training begins, and it is simple really.

9-1 shows us what the Pivot components are:

Pivot
Shoulder Turn
Hip Turn
Hip Action
Knee Action
Foot Action

I recommend that you use the pictures in 9-1 as well as the pictures depicting YOUR pivot components as a guide to train your pivot.

For example, 10-13-A, Standard Shoulder Turn will show you how the shoulders are supposed to work if using that variation.

Thus, you use the pictures in 9-1 and YOUR variations as guideposts. Remember not to use your hands. Best to keep them behind your back in Zone #1 training. And then per Mr. Kelley's admonition...coordinate Zone #2 and #3 as soon as possible.

A Short-Cut

There is a 'short-cut' though in a form of a drill...

1. Take a Baseball grip per 10-1-B, making sure that your hands are at least 3 inches apart.

2. Make your normal swing or hit.

I shall not elaborate on this, but suffice to say, if your shots go long and straight with this drill, your divots point slightly right of the target line and you can see the proper blur of the Clubhead passage through Release per 8-0, you GOT IT!

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Very nice post Comdpa!!

There are different opinions on this... but Tom Tomasello said that Zone #1 is about 90% of the whole thing. He said something like...YOU CAN'T GET THE ARMS TO DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO, UNLESS THE BODY IS DOING WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO DO, AND YOU CAN'T GET THE HANDS TO DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO UNLESS THE ARMS ARE DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. IT STARTS WITH THE BODY(ZONE #1). He thought the Zones were in order 1, 2, 3 for a reason.

Now, we all know that people can make compensations for poor alignments and motions... up to a point. The HANDS can control the Pivot, but the PIVOT must be doing the right things to allow those HANDS, and ARMS to work well.

What do you think?

[comdpa]

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Very nice post Comdpa!!

There are different opinions on this... but Tom Tomasello said that Zone #1 is about 90% of the whole thing. He said something like...YOU CAN'T GET THE ARMS TO DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO, UNLESS THE BODY IS DOING WHAT IT IS SUPPOSED TO DO, AND YOU CAN'T GET THE HANDS TO DO WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO UNLESS THE ARMS ARE DOING WHAT THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO DO. IT STARTS WITH THE BODY(ZONE #1). He thought the Zones were in order 1, 2, 3 for a reason.

Now, we all know that people can make compensations for poor alignments and motions... up to a point. The HANDS can control the Pivot, but the PIVOT must be doing the right things to allow those HANDS, and ARMS to work well.

What do you think?

I agree completely with what Mr. Tomasello says about the hands being hampered by the body - or words to that effect.

In my humble opinion, the pivot is not doing what it ought to be doing because golfers have unknowingly trained the pivot to behave like a wilful child.

Therefore part of my student's Pivot Training is actually an 'unlearning' process.

For raw beginners, the Pivot Training usually takes less than 5 minutes.

[12 piece bucket]

Hi Toolish...

The first question you need to address is what causes the right arm to run out of gas.

The Cause

Per 7-13: "Keep that Right Shoulder not only "back" but also "down" (On Plane), or you will "run out of Right Arm" before the Hands reach Impact Position - an automatic Throwaway (7-14, 8-6)"

Running out of Right Arm simply means that the Right Arm straightens before impact.

The Effects

With a Roundhouse move, the Right Arm simply has to straighten in order for the clubhead to reach the ball because the Right Shoulder is not where it was at Impact Fix.

With a straight right arm at impact, you will per 2-P produce a "soft" Impact - a useful simplification no doubt, but one that you are most likely avoiding.

Further as a result of that Right Shoulder roundhousing, your Right Forearm will come into Impact too high - Hackersville - per 2-F.

The Golfing Machine is a Hands System but per 6-G-0: "Educated Hands can compensate for Off Line Hip and SHOULDER MOTION but only up to a point."

I emphasize SHOULDER MOTION.

9-1: "Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot."

12-3-0: "Note that no Zone #1 elements are listed - Educated Hands control the Pivot (9-1)."

One may find a contradiction between these three verses (7-13, 9-1 and 12-3-0), but hold on, I will get back to this.

You mention that you do not experience such problems for chips and pitches because for such strokes, the hands do not go to the Top or End position per 10-21-A/C respectively. Further, Pivot is not activated.

In 8-6 of the 3rd Edition, Mr. Kelley, says of the Top..."This is the first chance for Clubhead Throwaway to sneak in."
Read this with 7-13, "...Automatic Throwaway" in mind.

So what now?

Train the Hands or Pivot?

Per 9-0: "The Three Zones are a natural division of the action. Their identities must be maintained in teaching, practice and playing. And unless developed in SEQUENCE, a very weak "compensated" game is inevitable."

With all due respect, practitioners who say "just train the hands" or "just train the pivot" give only a side of the story.
Again, I refer to 9-0.

9-2: "Zone #3 can never be better than its Zones #1 and #2 support." This is blatant that Pivot Training must take place.

Again 9-2: "But don't delay moving on - Zones #2 and #3 must be coordinated as soon as feasible." This is blatant that Pivot Training is not the end-all of The Golfing Machine.

As I mentioned early, to reconcile the apparent contradiction between 7-12, 9-1, 12-3-0; think of it as...

1) Train the Pivot
2) Train the Hands
3) Let the Educated Hands control the Educated Pivot

In 12-5-1 and 12-5-2, training the Pivot merely entails one to stand 'still' per 10-12-D, thus not much training of the Pivot takes place except to stand still!

However in 12-5-3, Pivot Motion then comes into play.

Training the Pivot

In training my students, this is where the 'real' Pivot training begins, and it is simple really.

9-1 shows us what the Pivot components are:

Pivot
Shoulder Turn
Hip Turn
Hip Action
Knee Action
Foot Action

I recommend that you use the pictures in 9-1 as well as the pictures depicting YOUR pivot components as a guide to train your pivot.

For example, 10-13-A, Standard Shoulder Turn will show you how the shoulders are supposed to work if using that variation.

Thus, you use the pictures in 9-1 and YOUR variations as guideposts. Remember not to use your hands. Best to keep them behind your back in Zone #1 training. And then per Mr. Kelley's admonition...coordinate Zone #2 and #3 as soon as possible.

A Short-Cut

There is a 'short-cut' though in a form of a drill...

1. Take a Baseball grip per 10-1-B, making sure that your hands are at least 3 inches apart.

2. Make your normal swing or hit.

I shall not elaborate on this, but suffice to say, if your shots go long and straight with this drill, your divots point slightly right of the target line and you can see the proper blur of the Clubhead passage through Release per 8-0, you GOT IT!

Helluva post!!! Stronger than a Habenero lolli-pop.

[comdpa]

... Stronger than a Habenero lolli-pop.

Are there such things available?

[golfer24]

GREAT POST.

Can you however elaborate on this baseball drill and how it will train the pivot exclusively

Matt

[Toolish]

Well, spent some time in the net working on acquired motion and start down waggle.

The right shoulder was going out more than down...when it goes down there is no right arm run out!!

With acquired motion I made sure i did not flatten the shoulder turn out as I have a tendency to do, which leads to some round house action.

Used the start down waggle to get the 'Jeff Hull grunt' move sorted, dropping the shoulder which forces the left hip to bump...as per Tomasello vids.

Not sure how it will all go ball flight wise...but I like the look and feel of impact more now. Just gotta make it a habit!