Jim Hardy comment , your thoughts?

[nuke99]

Jim himself mentioned that he wished he had called it "Arms oriented" and "Body oriented" swings. He's a bit tired of the hair splitting about the two swing types...takes away from the intended points.

When I read the above, I became even more confused what he is trying to say ...

----

And basically I am also very curious about this. As a swinger with a Body Orientated swing like JH, he advocate that the right elbow is behind the hip at impact and that IS the KEY to accuracy and great impact. And he mentioned that Ben Hogan at his peak have his right elbow behind his hip at impact.( is that true?)

However here , tried and tested i learned a more natural way is bump left and let the arm/body lead the hip, flat left wrist and POW! . great and a more relaxed and natural movements. However , it feels like the right elbow is more in front of the hip or not neccesarry in front?

So .. Which is a more repeatable and prefered way? Any clarification is great. Hope to learn a little bit more

Thank you !

Sorry i sounded confused because I am !... or Should I?

[EdZ]

Jim himself mentioned that he wished he had called it "Arms oriented" and "Body oriented" swings. He's a bit tired of the hair splitting about the two swing types...takes away from the intended points.

When I read the above, I became even more confused what he is trying to say ...

----

And basically I am also very curious about this. As a swinger with a Body Orientated swing like JH, he advocate that the right elbow is behind the hip at impact and that IS the KEY to accuracy and great impact. And he mentioned that Ben Hogan at his peak have his right elbow behind his hip at impact.( is that true?)

However here , tried and tested i learned a more natural way is bump left and let the arm/body lead the hip, flat left wrist and POW! . great and a more relaxed and natural movements. However , it feels like the right elbow is more in front of the hip or not neccesarry in front?

So .. Which is a more repeatable and prefered way? Any clarification is great. Hope to learn a little bit more

Thank you !

Sorry i sounded confused because I am !... or Should I?

I certainly agree that his book has an unfortunate title. It is a good discussion about the setup differences between a posture with the body more upright, vs a lot of forward bend from the hips.

These 'somewhat' map to the general trends of a hitter vs swinger - with more forward tilt from the hips making a hitter's motion more likely, and more upright a swingers (annika, stewart).

The elbow positions you talk of are punch vs pitch, with punch having an advantage in the accuracy department, and pitch more speed IMO.

If you use CF to power your motion, a pitch elbow can have an advantage, if you use muscular thrust (right triceps), a punch elbow can have an advantage.

Part of the point of his text was that what you do at setup defines what 'works best' during your motion, so as for which to use, it depends on your trends/setup/body/abilities.

[dkerby]

Hogan positioned his right elbow at the right "watch pocket",
the position that he set up with this waggle. Don't know if
this position is considered to be behin the hip or in front
of the hip. I keep reading Yodas forum topic on Hogans power
secret where Hogans right elbow moved forward. Per Homer
Kelley, the right elbow need to be inside the line of sight
to the ball before releasing.

[birdie_man]

The only beefs I have:

-the name (1P, 2P)....kinda misleading.....doesn't give you a good idea of what the plane really is.

-the "incompatibilites"....(some of) which really aren't incompatibilities.....for example- Hogan didn't have a strong grip, and is a "1P" guy according to Hardy's system.....and in Hardy's descriptions he has a "WARNING!" of this....

-the fact that if you go beyond the point where the left arm and shoulders line up you are no longer a "1P" guy (as I understand it)....even tho you've prolly just made a longer swing (and/or not as incredibly flat) and are now on the Turned Shoulder Plane as a result......still can be a Double Shift or Single Shift tho.....same motion essentially......doesn't at all make it similar to a "2P" swing.....as I see it.

-the horribly posed pictures in his GD article. (they look sooooo bad.....lol )

[Delaware Golf]

Jim himself mentioned that he wished he had called it "Arms oriented" and "Body oriented" swings. He's a bit tired of the hair splitting about the two swing types...takes away from the intended points.

When I read the above, I became even more confused what he is trying to say ...

----

And basically I am also very curious about this. As a swinger with a Body Orientated swing like JH, he advocate that the right elbow is behind the hip at impact and that IS the KEY to accuracy and great impact. And he mentioned that Ben Hogan at his peak have his right elbow behind his hip at impact.( is that true?)

However here , tried and tested i learned a more natural way is bump left and let the arm/body lead the hip, flat left wrist and POW! . great and a more relaxed and natural movements. However , it feels like the right elbow is more in front of the hip or not neccesarry in front?

So .. Which is a more repeatable and prefered way? Any clarification is great. Hope to learn a little bit more

Thank you !

Sorry i sounded confused because I am !... or Should I?

Just take a look at Hogan on the front of his book the 5 Fundamental's...his right elbow is in front of his right hip...

DG

[nuke99]

Delware,
Exactly, Hogan is a swinger.

So guys , a pitch elbow is somewhat in front and a Hit elbow somewhat behind the hips?

So why did he use Hogan as a One plane swing , while he advocates more of a Hitter motion in a One plane swing?

Thanks for clearing up this THICK FOG ...

[Delaware Golf]

Delware,
Exactly, Hogan is a swinger.

So guys , a pitch elbow is somewhat in front and a Hit elbow somewhat behind the hips?

So why did he use Hogan as a One plane swing , while he advocates more of a Hitter motion in a One plane swing?

Thanks for clearing up this THICK FOG ...

Nope...the hitters right elbow does not get somewhat behind the right hip...read and study 10-3-A..."down-and-at-the-side" Elbow Position.

[lagster]

Delware,
Exactly, Hogan is a swinger.

So guys , a pitch elbow is somewhat in front and a Hit elbow somewhat behind the hips?

So why did he use Hogan as a One plane swing , while he advocates more of a Hitter motion in a One plane swing?

Thanks for clearing up this THICK FOG ...

.................................................. .....

Mr. Hardy thinks it is a big mistake to try to horse that right elbow up in front of the right hip. He does not really go into HITTING vs. SWINGING.

I talked to him briefly about this elbow subject one time. He said to look at a big "coffee table" book about Hogan. He said there is a picture in there that clearly shows where his elbow was. It was not in front. (It was more of a TGM "PUNCH" position.)

I believe he thinks that Mr. Hogan didn't really do what he felt like he did.

Now... we TGMers know that some very good players do have the elbow in front. Some ways of getting it there... are probably better than others. The elbow, however, does not have to be in front. Jim Furyk is an example of this.

[birdie_man]

It was not in front. (It was more of a TGM "PUNCH" position.)

Of course.

...all this talk about you being "stuck" if you do this is BS (BS!)....

Hell....if Hogan did it maybe we should ALL do it...

...

BTW...

What did he feel Hogan did vs. what he thought he did?

[mrodock]

I spent quite a bit of time watching the Shells match and Hogan's right elbow is definitely behind his hip at impact. Hardy said that after the accident, I believe, is when Hogan kept the elbow back until after impact. He said this helped him avoid the hook. I don't know, makes a helluva lot of sense to me.

Matt