The two sides of the coin

[EdZ]

A question via PM that I wanted to share. This may help some of you 'see' the differences between hitters and swingers.


quote:
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Hitters and Manipulated Hands Swingers play the Ball back (of
Straightaway Flight Location) for Draws and forward for Fades. With
the Left Wrist positioned Flat, Level and Vertical, the Club is rotated
within the Grip -- Closed for Draws and Opened for Fades -- to agree
with the new Ball Location. A Ball placed back in the Stance will Draw
because the Clubface makes contact with the Outside Aft quadrant of
the Ball. A Ball placed forward in the Stance will Fade because the
Clubface makes contact with the Inside Aft Quadrant.
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I just don't understand that last sentence.
Here is what I think: whether you're a manipulated hands swinger, hitter, or swinger, or whatever, the clubface ALWAYS goes from open to square to closed, not the other way round.
So, lets say you were hitting the ball perfectly straight, and you're a hitter/manipulated hands swinger, then according to yoda, you would place ball back to draw. But wouldn't placing the ball back mean that the clubface would be more OPEN at that point? So it will contact the inside aft quadrant of the ball? So you will actually fade the ball?

Thanks,

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A swinger moves the club open (leading edge 'on plane') in the takeaway, with the startup swivel (roll to 'toe up').

A hitter keeps the leading edge 'perpendicular' to the plane in the takeaway, toe about 45 degrees.

So while a swinger's clubFACE opens and closes like a gate hung from the left shoulder, so that it stays 'on the plane' above hip high back and through above hip high, a hitter's clubFACE stays as perpendicular to the plane as possible back and through. So even though it isn't really a 'closed to open' movement, a hitters move is fairly close to that. Trying to stay 'square' to the arc, unlike the swinger who rolls back onto the plane, and through to the plane - 90 degrees back, 180 through.

Given that closed to open motion, the farther back a hitter has the ball, the more closed the clubface. A swinger is the opposite, the farther back the swinger has the ball, the more open the clubface.


The geometry (of the line of compression) is the same at impact, but how you get there (the physics) is different.

Two sides of the same coin. You either come at 'ideal' from one side (open to closed - swinger), or from the other (closed to open - hitter).

Angled hinge is attempting to stay on the 'ideal' from a geometry standpoint, however the clubs design is such that the leading edge wants to move 'on the plane'.

You either go with physics, and 'let' things happen, or you go with geometry and 'make' things happen. There are advantages and disadvantags to both.

That 'thing' is the line of compression - the force you are putting 'through' the ball, the nail you drive through the inside back corner.

Take a look at the diagrams in chapter 2. It may also be helpful to reflect on hitting a cue ball at different points on the ball. Think of the cue stick as the 'line of compression' as you hit different parts of the cue ball and note the forces/spin you impart.

Hope this helps - EdZ

[jimmydean]

edz,
i recently discovered that i hit the ball really well when i slightly open the clubface at address and rotate the left forearm through impact. the flight tends to be slightly right to left. also, i have strengthened my left hand grip only after adjusting the clubface in the open position. any thoughts?
is this acceptable? edz, i always appreciate your thoughts and advice.
jimmydean

[Yoda]

That 'thing' is the line of compression - the force you are putting 'through' the ball, the nail you drive through the inside back corner.

I really like EdZ's Driving the Nail image. It encapsulates the concept of Timing (6-F) and is very useful in getting it right. Similarly, this is one of the reasons why training with an Impact Bag is so effective.

Where to 'drive the nail' is strictly a product of the selected Delivery Line. When Tracing the Geometric Plane Line, the target is the middle of the back of the Ball. When using either of the Visual Equivalents of that Line -- Arc of Approach (Curved Clubhead Blur) or Angle of Approach -- the target is the inside-aft quadrant (2-J-3).

No matter which Delivery Line is monitored -- the Geometric or the Visual -- the Clubhead's actual Arc through the Ball is identical: through the inside-aft quadrant.

[EdZ]

edz,
i recently discovered that i hit the ball really well when i slightly open the clubface at address and rotate the left forearm through impact. the flight tends to be slightly right to left. also, i have strengthened my left hand grip only after adjusting the clubface in the open position. any thoughts?
is this acceptable? edz, i always appreciate your thoughts and advice.
jimmydean

Yes, with a horizontal hinge action you generally want to have the clubface a few degrees open at address. In fact, one of the better ways to learn horizontal hinge is to setup with the clubface even more open, which really puts your attention on that forearm rotation through and has the benefit of focusing your attention a bit more on the inside corner of the ball (because the clubface is 'looking' that direction when slightly open, and because a proper address has the club soled with the ball slightly towards the toe).

One word of caution however is that you must still maintain Rhythm. Turn through with the same 'RPM', keeping the hands and chest moving through together.

The 'roll' should be smoooooooth and heavy. One long, slow swivel from the top to finish. So while it IS very helpful to 'over do' this rotation as you learn it, to roll as fast and as hard as you can - it is harmful to play that way long term. Let CF and Balance be your guide.

There is also a direct relationship with the strength of your grip and the amount of effort you put into that roll of the forearm. Keep that flat left wrist, and CF will show you the 'right amount' of grip strength in the left hand. One of the better ways to see this is to grip the club as your arm hangs at your left side, or even better still grip it at impact fix! That is generally the best amount of grip strength in the left hand grip.

Remember to 'MONITOR THE HANDS' and you will find the proper Rhythm fairly quickly.

[jim_0068]

Be careful with a "hard roll" and addressing with a very open club at impact. Reason being you can sneak in throwaway that you may not know and this will close the face for you and make you think you're doing it right because it will create a hard draw.

[EdZ]

Indeed, you must have a flat left wrist!

One of the things I changed in my swing when learning TGM was moving my grip to 10-2-B from a 'classic' Hogan style grip. It is perhaps the single biggest change I have made. I still slip out of it if I don't monitor my alignments well at address and get the right hand grip too far down in the fingers and/or give up the 'gap' in my left hand/thumb.

No discussion of TGM would be complete without a focus on learning the Flying Wedges, and really 'getting' your grip correct is the key. IF you learn to set the wedges as you address the ball, to take your grip at impact fix, and to use extensor action the mystery of 'to roll or not to roll' will in many ways take care of itself, as will the flat left wrist.

The wedges will 'lock in' your alignments so that you can 'do less' during your swing.

Jim's warning is indeed a valid one, but the root cause of that breakdown is more than likely an improper grip and/or improperly set wedges.

The thing about swinging is that you can 'get away' with a lot of sloppy areas of your motion, because CF will take care of quite a lot. Learning 'full roll' by overdoing it is a key first step in taking advantage of CF to align the clubface/shaft/head for impact. The next step is really understanding the wedges, 10-2-B and extensor action.

In fact those three things are a really great shortcut to learning TGM

[tongzilla]

A swinger moves the club open (leading edge 'on plane') in the takeaway, with the startup swivel (roll to 'toe up').

A hitter keeps the leading edge 'perpendicular' to the plane in the takeaway, toe about 45 degrees.

So while a swinger's clubFACE opens and closes like a gate hung from the left shoulder, so that it stays 'on the plane' above hip high back and through above hip high, a hitter's clubFACE stays as perpendicular to the plane as possible back and through. So even though it isn't really a 'closed to open' movement, a hitters move is fairly close to that. Trying to stay 'square' to the arc, unlike the swinger who rolls back onto the plane, and through to the plane - 90 degrees back, 180 through.

Given that closed to open motion, the farther back a hitter has the ball, the more closed the clubface. A swinger is the opposite, the farther back the swinger has the ball, the more open the clubface.


The geometry (of the line of compression) is the same at impact, but how you get there (the physics) is different.

Two sides of the same coin. You either come at 'ideal' from one side (open to closed - swinger), or from the other (closed to open - hitter).

Angled hinge is attempting to stay on the 'ideal' from a geometry standpoint, however the clubs design is such that the leading edge wants to move 'on the plane'.

You either go with physics, and 'let' things happen, or you go with geometry and 'make' things happen. There are advantages and disadvantags to both.

That 'thing' is the line of compression - the force you are putting 'through' the ball, the nail you drive through the inside back corner.

Take a look at the diagrams in chapter 2. It may also be helpful to reflect on hitting a cue ball at different points on the ball. Think of the cue stick as the 'line of compression' as you hit different parts of the cue ball and note the forces/spin you impart.

Hope this helps - EdZ

Cue ball and stick. If struck at the centre, cue ball will obviously go straight. If struck towards the right, it will spin to the left.
Back to golf. If the face strikes the ball on the outside aft, ball will spin to the left, known as draw/hook. If struck on the inside aft, ball will spin to the right, known as fade/slice.
Ok, I hope the above is correct.

I still don't get how with angled hinging, if the ball is placed further back, it will cause a draw (i.e. clubface needs to contact on outside aft, right?). That is because I don't get how it moves from closed to open. I was playing with my hinge toy today--yes, it's an uncentered motion and the rate at which it closes is slower than horizontal hinging and there's lay-back. But, at the end of the day, it still goes from open to square to close as far as I can see. I must be missing something here! Can someone explain this in terms of the real hinge model I’ve got?

Oh yes, by the way, I experience with the hitting motion today, with angled hinging obviously, and tried the above- moving ball back to draw, and moving ball foward to fade- and it does work. I just don't understand why.

[tongzilla]

Ok guys, thanks for the overwhelming response to the queries in my last post. I think I finally get how this works and I'm going to put it in my own words, because the logic is clearer from my point of view.

For Horizontal Hinging, there is a centered motion, so the clubface is always square to the arc. The arc is the path of clubhead travel. If a tangent is drawn at any point on the arc, this tangent is always perpendicular to the clubface. In other words, the clubface is always square relative to the arc.

For Angled Hinging, there is an uncentered motion, so the clubface is only square to the arc at one point in the stroke. Before this point, the clubface is closed relative to the arc. Therefore, in order for the clubface to go from closed to square (relative to the arc), the clubface must be opening. Note that relative to the target line, the clubface goes from open to square to closed. But relative to the arc, the clubface goes from closed to square to open.

Now on how to curve the flight path of the ball. If you want the ball to curve to the left (i.e. draw/hook) then you must hit the outside aft quadrant of the ball. But when people talk about the outside aft quadrant, it is actually quite misleading, because they are usually talking about the visual outside aft quadrant. This visual quadrant is drawn with the centre line pointing at the target. However, the actual centre line should point to the right of the target, because arc of clubhead travel goes from inside to outside before low point, because of the nature of the inclined plane. This means that if you hit the true outside aft quadrant of the ball, it may actually be the visual inside aft quadrant! In other words, if you want to draw the ball, you must hit the true outside aft quadrant of the ball, even though this may look like the visual inside aft quadrant.

Now bringing everything together, we see that the further back you place the ball with Angled Hinging, the more closed the clubface is relative to the arc. Hence the ball will draw/hook. However, even though it may look like visually you are hitting the inside aft quadrant of the ball (so drawing/hooking is not possible), you are actually hitting the true outside aft quadrant of the ball.

And the reverse is true if you place the ball forwards. The clubface will be more open relative to the arc, so you will fade/slice. You are hitting on the inside aft quadrant of the ball even though visually it may look like you are hitting the outside aft quadrant.

[dclaryjr]

Cue ball and stick. If struck at the centre, cue ball will obviously go straight. If struck towards the right, it will spin to the left.
Back to golf. If the face strikes the ball on the outside aft, ball will spin to the left, known as draw/hook. If struck on the inside aft, ball will spin to the right, known as fade/slice.
Ok, I hope the above is correct.

No, it's not. The problem with your analogy is that there is a longer period of contact between a club face and a golf ball than there is with the cue ball and stick. The clubhead can make contact inside aft, but the clubface can rotate to square (relative to the target line) by the time the ball separates from the clubhead. Result--straight ball flight.

[tongzilla]

Originally Posted by tongzilla

Cue ball and stick. If struck at the centre, cue ball will obviously go straight. If struck towards the right, it will spin to the left. Back to golf. If the face strikes the ball on the outside aft, ball will spin to the left, known as draw/hook. If struck on the inside aft, ball will spin to the right, known as fade/slice. Ok, I hope the above is correct.

No, it's not. The problem with your analogy is that there is a longer period of contact between a club face and a golf ball than there is with the cue ball and stick. The clubhead can make contact inside aft, but the clubface can rotate to square (relative to the target line) by the time the ball separates from the clubhead. Result--straight ball flight.

(Firstly, this analogy was suggested by EdZ, not me. I was told to use it as a model to help me further understand its application in G.O.L.F.). Please take a look at my next post where I discuss in detail about this inside aft quadrant issue, and the confusion with using this term.

You are correct in the sense that the clubface contacts the ball on the visual inside aft quadrant, but in fact, relative to the real centre line of the ball, the clubface contacts the ball right in the centre, in between the inside and outside aft quadrants. This real centre line points to the right of the target. Why? Because the tangent of the Arc of Approach is to the right of the target at impact point, and that is the direction of the centre line. This is because the club is swung on the Inclined Plane and the ball is struck before Low pPoint. Which is why this same centre line has rotated, so that it is now pointing at the target, by the time the ball has come to separation.

Basically, we should always clarify whether we're talking about the visual quadrants, using the visual centre lines (one of them pointing directly at target), or the real quadrants, using the real centre lines (one of them pointing as a tangent on the Arc of Approach at Impact Point, to the right of target) .