Under Plane Corrections - Departure from TGM Geometry?
Well... after some mediocre tournament play of late, I've started to fiddle with my swing again...... for the 100th time (at least).
My problem (for many years) has been an under-plane, shallowing out of the club about 1 foot into the downswing until about 2 feet before impact when it gets "planed out" (with plenty of shaft lean). Post impact tends to mirror the downswing with a club that exists slightly above the beltline from a d-t-l view.
I used to think that my swing hadn't changed much over time, but when I pulled some video from the late 80's I noticed I was much more on plane back then. Where it digressed I don't know, but it has. I go through stretches where I don't worry much about the downswing layoff, but deep down I KNOW it has an effect on power, accuracy, and consistency.
I worked with some Haney guys many years ago and couldn't repeat what they wanted me to do very well, so I gave up on it. But now, with an understanding of the flying wedges, I've messed around some with those old tips related to getting it planed properly, and things are looking up.
Most of these things are "left-side" related. Such as needing to "feel" like I pull the butt of the club into my left hip pocket as I start down in order to get the club out and on plane rather that stuck behind me. It's almost like I rotate my FLW "down and left" as hard as I can as I start down.
I've tried for many years since discovering TGM to keep things "right sided" (right shoulder moving down plane, pp#3 tracing, etc), but none of it has helped with my shallowing problem.
The recent success I've had with these "move left" images just reinforce how tough it is to play great golf from a "too shallow" downswing. My ball flight has gone up and I have to believe my spin rate with the driver has gone down (from it's normal 3200 rpm). Pitch shots seem much easier, and I'm more in the middle of the face with all my clubs. (I've always been a low ball "spinny" type of player with lots of shaft lean and impact closer to the heel than the center of the face).
There seems to be so little advice for golfers that shallow it out too much, with everything being geared to the ott slicer. And as much as I love TGM, there is a feel vs real that even good players need to get past in order to put the information to good use. My concept of an on-plane downswing was/is sooooo off the mark..... feel-wise! Getting it on plane is so important. In my case I feel like I had to go outside the book to fix it.
I'm curious if a TGM based teacher has corrected an under-plane downswing, and how you went about it.
I've been away from the forum here for quite some time and my thoughts might be a little rusty, but here goes...
An under-plane downstroke has been a recurring issue with my swing as well. And I remember the instructional video where it all began...but that is neither here nor there.
I've realized over the past few years that I actually seem to play better golf when I'm slightly below plane in the downstroke. Like you, I've played around with all the mental images and strange swing thoughts in attempting to fix it -- from the top, I'd feel like I'd be chopping across the ball from out to in. Like a quick swipe from startdown straight down to my left foot. Oddly enough that's what it would take to get things on plane when I'd put myself on video.
The best images I came up with involved PP3 and the aiming point concept. On video from a down-the-line view, things went south -- literally -- right at startdown. The first place my hands moved from the top was down rather than on plane. If that happens there's no getting back on track. So, I'd feel PP3 at the top and mentally draw a straight line down to the ball. Then I'd drag PP3 right down that line.
The tough part for me, however, was figuring out how to Swing while keeping PP3 from falling under-plane at startdown. Part of it probably has to do with my tendency to overanalyze these things. Anyhow, when I felt like I'd start down with my right shoulder and begin dragging PP3, it'd fall hopelessly under-plane. I've got my mind in my hands, but my body is supported to be transporting my hands...a concept I still have trouble with to this day. I almost think that Hitters have an easier time staying on-plane because they can thrust down right from the top with right-arm extension -- rather than trying to pull PP3 down what feels like a very steep plane (as you know, when your "normal" stroke is under plane, "on plane" feels unbelievably steep).
Some thoughts for now...let me think about this a little more and see what else comes to mind. Under-plane is a tough place to be.
Well... after some mediocre tournament play of late, I've started to fiddle with my swing again...... for the 100th time (at least).
My problem (for many years) has been an under-plane, shallowing out of the club about 1 foot into the downswing until about 2 feet before impact when it gets "planed out" (with plenty of shaft lean). Post impact tends to mirror the downswing with a club that exists slightly above the beltline from a d-t-l view.
I used to think that my swing hadn't changed much over time, but when I pulled some video from the late 80's I noticed I was much more on plane back then. Where it digressed I don't know, but it has. I go through stretches where I don't worry much about the downswing layoff, but deep down I KNOW it has an effect on power, accuracy, and consistency.
I worked with some Haney guys many years ago and couldn't repeat what they wanted me to do very well, so I gave up on it. But now, with an understanding of the flying wedges, I've messed around some with those old tips related to getting it planed properly, and things are looking up.
Most of these things are "left-side" related. Such as needing to "feel" like I pull the butt of the club into my left hip pocket as I start down in order to get the club out and on plane rather that stuck behind me. It's almost like I rotate my FLW "down and left" as hard as I can as I start down.
I've tried for many years since discovering TGM to keep things "right sided" (right shoulder moving down plane, pp#3 tracing, etc), but none of it has helped with my shallowing problem.
The recent success I've had with these "move left" images just reinforce how tough it is to play great golf from a "too shallow" downswing. My ball flight has gone up and I have to believe my spin rate with the driver has gone down (from it's normal 3200 rpm). Pitch shots seem much easier, and I'm more in the middle of the face with all my clubs. (I've always been a low ball "spinny" type of player with lots of shaft lean and impact closer to the heel than the center of the face).
There seems to be so little advice for golfers that shallow it out too much, with everything being geared to the ott slicer. And as much as I love TGM, there is a feel vs real that even good players need to get past in order to put the information to good use. My concept of an on-plane downswing was/is sooooo off the mark..... feel-wise! Getting it on plane is so important. In my case I feel like I had to go outside the book to fix it.
I'm curious if a TGM based teacher has corrected an under-plane downswing, and how you went about it.
Comet
I am curious how you had to go "outside the book" in order to fix the problem? Over plane and under plane have the same problem, they are both off plane.
Someone once asked Chuck Cook what was new in golf instruction and he replied, "nothing. I am still teaching hookers how to slice and slicers how to hook." I have used the same philosophy many times, if someone is under plane, then I have them "feel" like they are hitting pull-fades. Sticking a dowel in the ground 6-10 feet in front of them on the target line and having them start it to the left of it with a square stance has also helped.
Ultimately you have to get the student to make a different motion than that which they are accustomed to, both from a feel and geometrical standpoint.
I am curious how you had to go "outside the book" in order to fix the problem? Over plane and under plane have the same problem, they are both off plane.
Someone once asked Chuck Cook what was new in golf instruction and he replied, "nothing. I am still teaching hookers how to slice and slicers how to hook." I have used the same philosophy many times, if someone is under plane, then I have them "feel" like they are hitting pull-fades. Sticking a dowel in the ground 6-10 feet in front of them on the target line and having them start it to the left of it with a square stance has also helped.
Ultimately you have to get the student to make a different motion than that which they are accustomed to, both from a feel and geometrical standpoint.
golfgnome,
You certainly don't need my validation, but I agree 100%. I have been under plane and way in to out for years without realizing it. Getting on a plane board and using the principles of TGM, I had no idea how much "LEFT" it feels to get the club back up the plane in follow through and finish. It's all in our little yellow book, we just need to apply it correctly.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Same issue, Matt has helped me here in Minnesota with the underplane issue and it is hard to cure. Whenever I try to put more effort in the shot, it rears its ugly head. One thing that has helped me besides the feeling that pp3 goes directly out to the ball, no drop, is making sure that the clubface does not get open. I find that when the clubface is too open, my brain directs the hands to drop inside. If you are a swinger, mid-body hands helps alot, as does making sure that the right hand maintains its position throughout the swing. Put a little grass between your left hand and right hand, try to make sure you don't lose the grass. Good luck, as Matt told me on the range, it is a tough issue to get rid of.
I am curious how you had to go "outside the book" in order to fix the problem? Over plane and under plane have the same problem, they are both off plane.
Someone once asked Chuck Cook what was new in golf instruction and he replied, "nothing. I am still teaching hookers how to slice and slicers how to hook." I have used the same philosophy many times, if someone is under plane, then I have them "feel" like they are hitting pull-fades. Sticking a dowel in the ground 6-10 feet in front of them on the target line and having them start it to the left of it with a square stance has also helped.
Ultimately you have to get the student to make a different motion than that which they are accustomed to, both from a feel and geometrical standpoint.
Gnome,
I probably mis-stated the issue regarding departure from the "geometry" of TGM. It's really a departure from the feel of the "physics". In other words, my focus seems to have to be on the left hand moving "steep and left" in an attempt to get the clubhead/shaft planed. Focusing on pp#3 and the right shoulder weren't working for me.
I agree..... off-plane is off-plane. I think I had simply slipped into relying on the book to tell me "how to fix" a bad start down. Although it IS "in the book", it's not there in a "here are a few quick tips on how to correct being under-plane" sense...... and I know better.
Homer was very clear about "feel vs real" and that is the issue in my case. I'm sure swinging on plane feels just as "wierd" for a good player who is normally under-plane as it does to the 24 hdcp who is used to being OTT.
Down and out can easily be overdone and lead to underplane. The new radar launch monitors show the club path so you can visually see it on each swing.
I will try to post a pic of PGA tour clubhead path along with the numbers. It is an eye opener.
I probably mis-stated the issue regarding departure from the "geometry" of TGM. It's really a departure from the feel of the "physics". In other words, my focus seems to have to be on the left hand moving "steep and left" in an attempt to get the clubhead/shaft planed. Focusing on pp#3 and the right shoulder weren't working for me.
I agree..... off-plane is off-plane. I think I had simply slipped into relying on the book to tell me "how to fix" a bad start down. Although it IS "in the book", it's not there in a "here are a few quick tips on how to correct being under-plane" sense...... and I know better.
Homer was very clear about "feel vs real" and that is the issue in my case. I'm sure swinging on plane feels just as "wierd" for a good player who is normally under-plane as it does to the 24 hdcp who is used to being OTT.
CG
I absolutely agree with your points. I have spent so much time over the last 6 years trying to get on plane that I now find myself changing some reliable "feels". Once again a feel based system is, as Homer stated, "a lopsided lottery".
I spent some time with Lynn a few days ago just to verify some alignments, clear some fog, and get some answers about what is "real". It only took us a few minutes to get back on track because once you understand the alignments, you are never very far off. Remember, mechanics produce feel and feel reproduces those mechanics. The mechanics never change but your feel is ever changing, especially after a long night out!
One thought that I remember from several lessons at the Faldo Institute in Orlando was that they wanted me to feel like my downswing path was on the same path as the takeaway. It can feel like you're coming over the top, particularly if you have been hitting too far from the inside.
What has helped me out of late in practicing the Golfing Machine method, is that with all the mention of straight line tracing takeaways and delivery paths, it is still quite helpfull to realize that the CLUBHEAD route is still on a semicircled path[with you at its center]......back and through.
I have one of the early editions of TGM and after many hours of attempted interpretation, I decide it was written in Sanskrit and gave up until a friend pointed me to this website. Thank you Lynn/Yoda.
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