13-B is a flat backstroke shoulder turn which according to the book, put's the shoulder on plane for any plane angle with a flatter angle than 10-13-C Rotated Shoulder Turn.
10-13-C moves the shoulders in a "normal" path at right angles to the spine.
10-13-D "On Plane" Shoulder Turn requires either B or C above in the backstroke with the right shoulder moving toward impact precisely on the downstroke clubshaft plane.
Is 13-B superior to 13-C in a general sense?
I've been working on this component and in my experience, it is much easier to get the right shoulder on plane in the downstroke with 10-13-B. My pattern includes a turned shoulder plane downstroke swing.
With a flatter backswing shoulder turn, I've noticed the long clubs are much easier to manage. 2 and 3 irons off tight lies sizzle and soar. Nutting the woods as well. But the same identical 13-B move with short irons is problematic. Feels too flat, so I'm planning on shooting some video to see what's happening.
This is the first time I've consiously focused on this component. I've always used the 13-C shoulder turn up til now. If anyone has similar experience lemme know.
I use the turned shoulder plane (i think) and i use it for every shot.
However i would understand with a short iron if you take the swing to the end it would be problematic. I only go to the top with my short irons with the same turn and its never an issue.
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I'm not a TGM or PGA certified Pro, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
I use the turned shoulder plane (i think) and i use it for every shot.
However i would understand with a short iron if you take the swing to the end it would be problematic. I only go to the top with my short irons with the same turn and its never an issue.
Jim,
I'm being fairly specific about the component variations (10-13-A,B,C,D)
Turned Shoulder Plane is related, but a separate component. End vs. top are also distinct. Utlimately all of the 24 components meld into a unified whole; that's the goal anyway.
Here is an archived post from Yoda on the subject which sheds a little light, but as a warning it only covers 10-13-C which does not require an axis tilt. More of a short shot variation.
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Your question was "How do you determine the exact amount of waist bend?" Here's how:
Three preliminary thoughts:
First, remember that the Shoulder Turn Component (7-13) refers strictly to the Right Shoulder. There is no geometric control in The Golfing Machine for the Left Shoulder, nor is one needed.
Second, recall that the Rotated Shoulder Turn (10-13-C) is produced by the 'normal' rotation of the Shoulders, i.e., at right angles to the spine.
Third, by definiton, there is no axis tilt permitted. This limits its Downstroke Turn to the Shiftless Hip Turn (10-14-C) and its specialized applications.
Now to your question and how to determine the exact amount of waist bend:
1. Get your Driver.
2. Standing about Driver distance from the Ball, think of the Driver as a hunting rifle. Put the Clubhead into your Right Shoulder and hold the Club just as you would aim a rifle. Get the Feel of the Rotated Shoulder Turn at first just by keeping your rifle barrel level with the ground, and turn from left to right and back again, over and over, getting the Feel of the perfectly level shoulder rotation. Pretend you're in a carnival shooting gallery and you are knocking off ducks at various points on the never-ending line of the conveyer belt. Make sure you are taking 'dead aim' by sighting directly down the 'rifle barrel' using your right eye.
3. Once you've got this motion down pat -- should take less than a minute! -- we need to move off the horizontal plane and onto the exact Rotated Shoulder Plane. So...
Keeping the 'butt' of your 'rifle' into your right shoulder -- and not dropping your arms in the slightest. Careful, this is the tendency! The 'rifle' must remain in the same relation with the Right Shoulder as it did in the horizontal drill above -- bend forward from the waist until you are 'aiming' your rifle (the butt-end of the Club) directly at the Plane Line.
This is the exact amount of waist bend you need to accomodate the On Plane Rotated Shoulder Turn in both directions.
Taking this a little farther, after you've located the exact waist bend, get the Feel of the On Plane Rotated Shoulder Turn motion by rotating the shoulders (at right angles to the spine) the same way you did when you were 'aiming' in the horizontal plane, but this time 'aim the rifle' at the Plane line and 'Trace' it in both directions of the turn.
Summarizing:
1. To determine the exact waist bend, 'shoot' the Plane Line with your 'Right Shoulder rifle.'
2. To maintain the Right Shoulder on its Rotated Shoulder Plane, 'Trace' the Plane Line with your 'rifle barrel!'
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Yoda
1. To determine the exact waist bend, 'shoot' the Plane Line with your 'Right Shoulder rifle.'
2. To maintain the Right Shoulder on its Rotated Shoulder Plane, 'Trace' the Plane Line with your 'rifle barrel!'"
Each club produces a different amount of waist bend. When playing, you would have to do 1. on every shot. It's bad enough to have 14 different plane angles, but to also have 14 different waist bends would be overwhelming. I have never seen a top player who used a Rotated Shoulder Turn which was on plane in both directions.
Each club produces a different amount of waist bend. When playing, you would have to do 1. on every shot. It's bad enough to have 14 different plane angles, but to also have 14 different waist bends would be overwhelming. I have never seen a top player who used a Rotated Shoulder Turn which was on plane in both directions.
MJ,
I agree, the rotated shoulder turn has a host of problems, not only the above but also Homer mentions it excludes the use of axis tilt!
So it's probably only applicable for short shots.
I think a LOT of people interpret shoulders rotating around the spine in conventional instruction as the 10-13-C Rotated Shoulder Turn. Attempting it requires the correct waist bend for the club at hand, and NO axis tilt in the downswing because theoretically the shoulder is already on plane.
For most applications it's a flat backstroke shoulder turn and an on plane downstroke shoulder turn. See 10-13-A and 10-13-D.
is it anatomically possible to actually NOT turn your shoulders at right angles to the top of your spine?
i don't think it is
I can make a horizontal shoulder turn, but it puts tension in the upper back instead of in the lats and waist area where it's needed to make a tension connection between the hips and shoulders.
is it anatomically possible to actually NOT turn your shoulders at right angles to the top of your spine?
i don't think it is
That be a true statement.
But it is possible to tilt the shoulders as they rotate, it is possible to change the original spine angle which will change the rotation. (some like to picture the spine angle and describe motion as though this was fixed).
It really is kind of a trick question/statement cause most will not catch the part "top of the Spine".
<< but also Homer mentions it excludes the use of axis tilt!>>
Bagger~
Is this in an audio? I can't find a specific book reference.
Thanks
Tom Stickney in a related Golf Illustrated article recommends a slight "lateral bending of the spine" for ease of making a level turn and keeping the left shoulder from "riding high." He also comments that a level shoulder turn requires more flexibility and lower body control.
<< but also Homer mentions it excludes the use of axis tilt!>>
Bagger~
Is this in an audio? I can't find a specific book reference.
DRW
Doc,
I paraphrased from the book. If you read 10-13-C it says, "Downstroke use is normally confined to the Shiftless Hip Turn". 10-14-C describes the Shiftless Hip Turn as "a free turn in both directions but with no weight shift..." This implies no axis tilt in the downstroke.
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