Aligning the Clubface

[Mike O]

Re the Yoda quote in post #54, "Hand Manipulation is accomplished at Impact Fix".

Yoda is wrong?

Since you asked the question I'll answer it.
Anyone can be wrong - and when you find out that you are wrong that's a good thing!
Specifically what you are referencing - the quote in post 54 - I didn't reference it as wrong at the time - because it was only a partial quote and I felt that after reading it - most likely in the context of the question that came before it (that i couldn't see) and the entire context of the written answer/comment (which I couldn't see) that chances are it was more likely to be appropriate than wrong for that particular full context of his post. To some degree I feel like that was a correct assumption after reading the link in post 83.

On a broader perspective - could Lynn be wrong - absolutely, could I be wrong - absolutely - any of us can be wrong - big deal. The real issue is not asking if someone is wrong - it's using your own mind to ask the appropriate questions, understand all or as many of the facts as possible and then determine what is right, from there as a side note you could see who falls where if you had an interest.

[MizunoJoe]

Since you asked the question I'll answer it.
Anyone can be wrong - and when you find out that you are wrong that's a good thing!
Specifically what you are referencing - the quote in post 54 - I didn't reference it as wrong at the time - because it was only a partial quote and I felt that after reading it - most likely in the context of the question that came before it (that i couldn't see) and the entire context of the written answer/comment (which I couldn't see) that chances are it was more likely to be appropriate than wrong for that particular full context of his post. To some degree I feel like that was a correct assumption after reading the link in post 83.

On a broader perspective - could Lynn be wrong - absolutely, could I be wrong - absolutely - any of us can be wrong - big deal. The real issue is not asking if someone is wrong - it's using your own mind to ask the appropriate questions, understand all or as many of the facts as possible and then determine what is right, from there as a side note you could see who falls where if you had an interest.

My intent was to ask "Is this correct or not", not to make any specific person look right or wrong. The statement "Hand Manipulation is accomplished at Impact Fix" is surely context independent. He didn't say "could be accomplished", but rather, "IS accomplished", which implies that any and all manipulation occurs at Impact Fix. After all this, I still don't know what Homer meant by Hand Manipulation, and it's hard to believe that doing something with the hands during the swing in order to alter club face alignment, is not Hand Manipulation.

[Mike O]

My intent was to ask "Is this correct or not", not to make any specific person look right or wrong. The statement "Hand Manipulation is accomplished at Impact Fix" is surely context independent. He didn't say "could be accomplished", but rather, "IS accomplished", which implies that any and all manipulation occurs at Impact Fix. After all this, I still don't know what Homer meant by Hand Manipulation, and it's hard to believe that doing something with the hands during the swing in order to alter club face alignment, is not Hand Manipulation.

I would say that nothing is context independent - everything in reality is related to everything else or many, many things - everything has a certain context.

I've defined Hand Manipulation earlier in this threasd and via that definition if one were to say that Hand Manipulation is only accomplished at impact fix then that would be incorrect. If one said that first Hand Manipulation requires one to identify the lead hand condition (For example Flat, Level and Vertical)and the corresponding clubface alignment intended for impact via impact fix AND then if one has some intent, focus, awareness to return to that lead hand location to control the clubface alignment at impact - then that would be correct and in fact would be a better definition of "Hand Manipulation" than my original definition - hence this will be the new definition that I give it.

Now if the question in the original thread was - Is Hand Manipulation accomplished at Impact Fix or Adjusted address? Then an appropriate answer in that context would be - Hand Manipulation is accomplished at Impact Fix. It's an appropriate answer in the context of the knowledge of the person asking the question. Is it a complete answer in the context of the broadest and fullest description of Hand Manipulation - NO. I didn't know what the question was, what the context of the thread was, etc. etc. - so the conservative approach was not to leap to conclusions.

Hope that sheds some light on the subject - I do understand your post and I see your point. Well taken.

[Mike O]

HB Quote: "I have said #1 does not exist. The "true swinger" alignments are a SPECIAL CASE of manipulative hands."

As I understand it. The "true" swinger is defined where clubface alignment is automatic via CF and is confined to a single impact alignment by the physics of CF for streight-away flight. I (my points in this discussion not TGM)see it as a alignment that doesn't require manipulation (special) but still is Flat Left Hand clubface control.

Your view - as you stated clearly above is that in a true swinging procedure (as you correctly identified it per TGM) you see it as a clubface alignment that is under the control of the flat left wrist through impact but doesn't require manipulation - now if I quoted you correctly (with my additional words for clarification in Orange) then that wouldn't appear to me to make any sense if you used my definition of "manipulation". Your feedback is invited

My definition: "Hand Manipulation requires one to identify the lead hand condition (For example Flat, Level and Vertical)and the corresponding clubface alignment intended for impact via impact fix AND then if one has some intent, focus, awareness to return to that lead hand location to control the clubface alignment at impact"

[HungryBear]

May I start by re-posting this link I put back in #69

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...ipulated+hands

and this post from eithin the aqbove link- I extracted from and linked in #83

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/post32114-8.html

Some of this is what informed my def.

These are important .

I will edit within, below.

HB Quote: "I have said #1 does not exist. The "true swinger" alignments are a SPECIAL CASE of manipulative hands."

As I understand it. The "true" swinger is defined where clubface alignment is automatic via CF and is confined to a single impact alignment by the physics of CF for streight-away flight.

Separation is intentional- Note; I do not put "left hand" into Def because I believe the TGM intent is to say cf aligns the clubface and incidently also asligns the left hand. a special case.

I (my points in this discussion not TGM)see it as a alignment that doesn't require manipulation (special) but still is Flat Left Hand clubface control.

My point is that the laft hand is controled. even for the "true swinger".
Your view - as you stated clearly above is that in a true swinging procedure (as you correctly identified it per TGM) you see it as a clubface alignment that is under the control of the flat left wrist through impact but doesn't require manipulation - now if I quoted you correctly (with my additional words for clarification in Orange) then that wouldn't appear to me to make any sense if you used my definition of "manipulation". Your feedback is invited

My definition: "Hand Manipulation requires one to identify the lead hand condition (For example Flat, Level and Vertical)

MY problem here- only FLAT- Because level is controled by the shaft on the plane and vertical is a function of hinging (the vertical would then be to the associated plane)

and the corresponding clubface alignment intended for impact via impact fix AND then if one has some intent, focus, awareness to return to that lead hand location to control the clubface alignment at impact"

An additional note. HK puts a lot of emphasis on what the right forearm-wedges etc do. BUT - WHAT THE LEFT HAND DOES NOT DO (other than be flat) is imperative! This thread opens that discussion.

Is this thing being lost because of all the patches getting stuck on??
HB