Recently a few posts have been centered around the golf stroke's 'swing plane'. Be it for analysis, for an explanation, etc. This may sound counter to Mr. Kelley's teaching or your understanding but given what he has written and what exist in the world of science and math, not to mention what new technology has to offer us in our understanding, I submit the following for consideration and comments. Sorry for the length and rambling...it is long.
Really what we are talking about I believe is the 'Plane of Motion' - 2-F.
Plane of Motion (2-F) - All the action of the Golf Club takes place on a flat, inflexible, Inclined Plane which extends well beyond the circumference of the stroke--in every direction. The full length of the Clubshaft remain unwaveringly on the face of the Inclined Plane--Waggle to Follow-through.
Plane - A flat surface extending in all directions. Any three noncollinear points lie on one and only one plane. So do any two distinct intersecting lines. A plane is a two-dimensional figure. (http://www.mathwords.com/p/plane.htm)
Starting off with what Mr. Kelley defined or stated as 'How you can check if you are on plane'.
Golf Club on Plane (2-F) - There are some very simple but very accurate checks for being "on Plane." Whenever the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane which is usually (but not always) the Line of Flight also. Otherwise, the end of the Club that is closes to the ground must be pointing at the base line of the Inclined Plane--or extensions of that line, even if they must be extended to the horizon.
Inclined Plane - A flat surface of any extent positioned somewhere between horizontal and vertical. The through-the-waist "Plane of Rotation" of the Clubshaft as established during Address Routine.
Plane Line - A line inscribed on a flat surface to be considered its Base Line and the line along which that Plane is to be rotated when changing its angle. A line inscribed on the surface of the Inclined Plane passing through the Ball location to serve as its Base Line and its center of rotation when changing its angle.
Also in 2-F it is stated 'Regardless of where the Clubshaft and Clubhead are joined together, it always feels as if they are joined at the Sweet Spot--the longitudinal center of gravity, the line of the pull of Centrifugal Force.
Sweet Spot - The longitudinal Center of Gravity of a length of material. That spot on the Clubface through which a plum-bob line would pass if suspended from the Grip area.
So there is a "Clubshaft" Plane and a "Sweet Spot", or "Swing" Plane. But herein, unless otherwise noted, "Plane Angle" and "Plane Line" always refer to the Center of Gravity application.
Now this is a lot of planes and lines in a very short section of the chapter. If we look at 2-C-1, the diagram, we can see the following:
a. Inclined Plane
b. Clubshaft Plane
c. Sweet Spot Plane
Interesting is that the Inclined Plane and Clubshaft Plane are parallel to each other while the Sweet Spot Plane appears not to be.
This would have the Sweet Spot Plane to be flatter than the Inclined or Clubshaft Plane.
The Inclined Plane is used quite extensively in The Golfing Machine book for illustration purposes, it is in effect and fact the Plane Board Mr. Kelley used. And based on the pictures (realizing the pictures should only be studied for what they are label as to show, not anything else,) it is safe to state that the Clubshaft Plane is parallel to the Inclined Plane and their angles are the same.
1. I am not sure I have seen anyone actually draw the Sweet Spot Plane. Anyone know of picture of such?
2. Being on Plane is defined by Mr. Kelley of using the ClubShaft to the Base Line of the Inclined Plane. The Inclined Plane is not the Sweet Spot Plane if we are to use a Plane Board or reference Mr. Kelley's illustrations. This concept is very critical if one is going to use lasers.
3. If one is to use a Plane Board, then what is one really attempting to accomplish? Can you really trace the Sweet Spot Plane (Plane Line) when it is flatter than the Inclined Plane or Clubshaft Plane?
Digressing for a minute...
Note, I don't say this often but taking Mr. Kelley's words for the Sweet Spot (That spot on the Clubface through which a plum-bob line would pass if suspended from the Grip area. ) and the other words for Plane, which are "The longitudinal Center of Gravity of a length of material", need to be applied correctly. For the Golf Club it is the top center of the grip that the line will go through down to the clubface weighted center point of the Clubface. Take the test. Suspend the golf club vertically from the ceiling. Then parallel to it, suspend a plum line or weighted line where it is in the center of the grip. The weighted line will point down to an area on the clubface. Holding the plum line on the front, top, aft or bottom of the golf grip is not finding the Longitudinal Center of Gravity. I can hold the plum line on all four sides and have it point to the clubface, but this is not correct, it is not the center.
This is important, very important concept to understand correctly.
Back in 2-F again, Mr. Kelley explains, "Except during Impact, the Clubshaft can travel on, or to-and-from, either Plane because Club Shaft rotation must be around the Sweet Spot--not vice versa. So Clubhead "Feel" is Clubhead lag Pressure (6-C) and is a Golfing Imperative. (2-0). If Lag Pressure is lost the Hands tend to start the hosel (instead of the Sweet Spot) toward Impact--that mysterious "Shank". When in doubt, "Turn" the Clubface so both the Clubshaft and the Sweet Spot will be on the same Plane at the Start Down. Both Planes always pass through the Lag Pressure Point. ...
Monitoring, feeling, Clubhead Lag is the "Secret of Golf". It can be any one or any combination of Pressure Points, selected to sense Clubhead acceleration rate and direction (2-M-2), but herein, unless otherwise specified, always refers to Pressure Point #3. .... (6-C-2-0)
Imperative #2 A Clubhead Lag Pressure Point DOES NOT HAVE TO BE Pressure Point #3. Now for most of us mortal golfers, it probably is or should be. To state that Clubhead Lag Pressure Point is PP#3 period, is counter to Mr. Kelley's words.
4. Why is it that the Clubshaft rotates around the Sweet Spot? Is it because we have chosen that as a reference point? Is it because of centrifugal force? Could it be considered that the Clubshaft moves on a plane and the Clubhead rotation is a factor of (1) a fixed point from which the club is suspended and the natural action/path of the inclined plane [back, up and in causing the opening of the clubface, etc.] (2) the golfer's wrist actions of turning and rolled (3) a combination of both 1 and 2?
Where all this leads to is What defines the actual
a. Plane Line you employ for tracings?
b. What Line on a Down the Line Video can you draw to detect a proper Inclined Plane?
c. What does using Mr. Kelley's checks for on plane really mean (the clubshaft to the Plane Line)?
d. Right Forearm on Clubshaft Angle and what Plane Angle is being used?
e. Most of the above assumes Zero Shift BUT....
Golf Club Design is an important factor in consideration. The golf club to begin with has a forward lean, which promotes the hands leading the clubhead. The golf shaft Lie Angle is fixed per club and ideally the sole of the clubhead will at Impact/Separation will be parallel to the surface. This indicates that the clubshaft angle (Lie Angle) is at least a factor if not critical in an alignment at Impact.
7-6 states, "The Clubshaft must start its journey on the Plane of its Address angle of inclination. It may or may not more to other Planes as it travels."
Mr. Kelley noted that at address or Impact Fix, that the club should not be grounded, if it is grounded then the toe should be up and aft ball location should be closer to the toe. (2-J-1)
In addition Mr. Kelley indicated that the faster the swing, the more centrifugal force, the more the clubhead will be pulled down. Often referred to as Clubhead Droop. Suppose ably with modern shaft technology this has been minimized.
So ideally the clubshaft angle at Impact/Separation meets the requirements/design of the golf club, ensures toe/heel not a factor, though the ball should be gone before either makes contact with the ground and the applied forces and sweet spot are aligned to provide the best resultant.
Again sorry for long post, but in attempting to make some sense of a few basics, I rambled through this mess.
Thoughts, Comments, etc.? (I hope I proofed this okay )
Golf Club on Plane (2-F) - There are some very simple but very accurate checks for being "on Plane." Whenever the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane which is usually (but not always) the Line of Flight also. Otherwise, the end of the Club that is closes to the ground must be pointing at the base line of the Inclined Plane--or extensions of that line, even if they must be extended to the horizon.
I hope I'm not picking nits but...
You say " when ever the clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must be also parallel to the base line...." At address, start your back swing and stop when the club is parallel to the ground. Since you are making a perfect backswing it is on plane. Now, swing the club parallel to the ground until it is straight out in front of you. It no longer is parallel to the base line or line of flight but it remains parallel to the ground plane.
When two non-parallel non- coexistant planes meet they form a line. The golfer positions himself so that the line of flight formed by the intersection of the club plane and the plane of the earth is directed at his target. To monitor the path of my club, to make sure that the plane my club is moving on has not wavered, I make sure the lowest end of the club is always pointing to the original flight line established during my impact set.
Weather this is correct or not, this has been the single biggest item that has straightened out my ball flight.
Golf Club Design is an important factor in consideration. The golf club to begin with has a forward lean, which promotes the hands leading the clubhead. The golf shaft Lie Angle is fixed per club and ideally the sole of the clubhead will at Impact/Separation will be parallel to the surface. This indicates that the clubshaft angle (Lie Angle) is at least a factor if not critical in an alignment at Impact.
Your interesting note has brought up a question that I've had and have never had it explained properly to me. I'm sorry that it has nothing to do with your original train of thought.
It was said here that the golf club is designed with a forward leaning shaft.
Yet when I want to measure all the parameters of a customer's club I place it in my very accurate measuring machine so that the sole of the club touches the base of the machine right under the CG of the head. The face of the club is parallel to lines scribed on the base of the machine. The shaft is held by the machine so that it forms the lie angle and is parallel to those lines on the base. At this point all the parameters, loft, lie and progression of the face to determine if where the plane of the face hits the ground plane is in front of or behind where the shaft line hits the ground.
Never during the precision measurements is the shaft pointing forward.
Why? Is this just convention?
When I set up my impact position during address I usually place my hands so they appear over the toe of my left foot and then the head of the club, on the ground, defines where my ball is. Is this correct?
Golf Club on Plane (2-F) - There are some very simple but very accurate checks for being "on Plane." Whenever the Clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must also be parallel to the base line of the Inclined Plane which is usually (but not always) the Line of Flight also. Otherwise, the end of the Club that is closes to the ground must be pointing at the base line of the Inclined Plane--or extensions of that line, even if they must be extended to the horizon.
I hope I'm not picking nits but...
You say " when ever the clubshaft is parallel to the ground it must be also parallel to the base line...." At address, start your back swing and stop when the club is parallel to the ground. Since you are making a perfect backswing it is on plane. Now, swing the club parallel to the ground until it is straight out in front of you. It no longer is parallel to the base line or line of flight but it remains parallel to the ground plane.
When two non-parallel non- coexistant planes meet they form a line. The golfer positions himself so that the line of flight formed by the intersection of the club plane and the plane of the earth is directed at his target. To monitor the path of my club, to make sure that the plane my club is moving on has not wavered, I make sure the lowest end of the club is always pointing to the original flight line established during my impact set.
Weather this is correct or not, this has been the single biggest item that has straightened out my ball flight.
Jim
That was a direct qoute from 2-F of The Golfing Machine. I didn't add or change anything.
2-N-0 addresses the Line of the Flight of the Clubhead and the Line of Flight of the ball. Pointing at the Flight Line is not what Mr. Kelley has advocated.
I am working on a diagram to show these lines according to 2-N-0 along with what else has been stated.
Target Line, Flight Line of Ball, Base Line, Inclined Plane, etc. not to mention the Impact Point, Low Point as well.
Way too much or busy for an analysis picture of a golf stroke when combined. Way too much when just overlaying all of them.
Inclined Plane - A flat surface of any extent positioned somewhere between horizontal and vertical. The through-the-waist "Plane of Rotation" of the Clubshaft as established during Address Routine.
What is the significance of the second sentence and how or where is it used? Cannot the clubshaft at address be on a plane that does not run through the waist? I can see how it is distinguished from a "basic plane" since a plane line is not included in the definition but could also see this implied if the conditions are an example. Seems like a strange way to define the plane angle if that is the intent.
Golf Club Design is an important factor in consideration. The golf club to begin with has a forward lean, which promotes the hands leading the clubhead. The golf shaft Lie Angle is fixed per club and ideally the sole of the clubhead will at Impact/Separation will be parallel to the surface. This indicates that the clubshaft angle (Lie Angle) is at least a factor if not critical in an alignment at Impact.
Your interesting note has brought up a question that I've had and have never had it explained properly to me. I'm sorry that it has nothing to do with your original train of thought.
It was said here that the golf club is designed with a forward leaning shaft.
Yet when I want to measure all the parameters of a customer's club I place it in my very accurate measuring machine so that the sole of the club touches the base of the machine right under the CG of the head. The face of the club is parallel to lines scribed on the base of the machine. The shaft is held by the machine so that it forms the lie angle and is parallel to those lines on the base. At this point all the parameters, loft, lie and progression of the face to determine if where the plane of the face hits the ground plane is in front of or behind where the shaft line hits the ground.
Never during the precision measurements is the shaft pointing forward.
Why? Is this just convention?
When I set up my impact position during address I usually place my hands so they appear over the toe of my left foot and then the head of the club, on the ground, defines where my ball is. Is this correct?
Try this... On a flat surface, holding the golf club by the head, place it so that sole rest on the surface with the shaft straight up and down (vertical). Now rotate the clubhead on the sole till the lead edge is flush to the flat surface. Now look at your shaft, it should be leaning forward.
This exercise is the easiest to see with irons, then woods, and putters are a totally different animal. You can find the shaft all over the places with putters.
The Lie Angle measurement as you described, I have heard and seen. But lets for a minute say okay I am going to measure all my clubs and adjust them using this method. Now they are all done correctly in regard to the reference, but in reality the actual Lie Angle by design may not be the same as you measure and for sure if you are hitting down on the ball's aft quadrant and the shaft is leaning forward, you are in effect delofting the club, the degree you lead with your hands, will determine how much you deloft it.
As for your address, the visual of the hands over the left toe, in reality doesn't have you shaft leaning as far forward as you might think, but definitely leaning forward.
I have heard of another process for setting up where you set the leading edge on the ground and then align you left arm pit up so it is in line with the shaft. My guess is your results will be about the same.
One last point, when addressing the golf ball, the club should not be grounded if you are aligning the golf ball with the sweet spot. It should hover. If you were to ground it, you then need to ensure that as the club goes to the ground, the ball moves out toward the toe and the toe should be raised off the ground with the heel just touching. Anything else will require compensations in the golf stroke to get the club back to the proper Impact Fix position.
Inclined Plane - A flat surface of any extent positioned somewhere between horizontal and vertical. The through-the-waist "Plane of Rotation" of the Clubshaft as established during Address Routine.
What is the significance of the second sentence and how or where is it used? Cannot the clubshaft at address be on a plane that does not run through the waist? I can see how it is distinguished from a "basic plane" since a plane line is not included in the definition but could also see this implied if the conditions are an example. Seems like a strange way to define the plane angle if that is the intent.
DRW
This again is a direct quote, including the last sentence. This was found in the glossary.
Can you have a plane that is not through the waist? You can without a doubt. Is it ideal, is it effective? I guess I haven't come to a conclusion. In fact I am still trying to equate the last sentence to other areas of the text.
Mr. Kelley stated that Inclined Planes that fell between the elbow and shoulders were accepted planes. (elbow location, around the waist?)
<<This again is a direct quote, including the last sentence. This was found in the glossary>>
<<Mr. Kelley stated that Inclined Planes that fell between the elbow and shoulders were accepted planes. (elbow location, around the waist?)>>
I had checked and understood it was from the glossary. Sorry that I didn't make that clear. Nothing there on Plane Angle though so the assumption that there was a relationship to Inclined Plane (??). Mr. Kelley also said in 7-7 the elbow plane is almost totally subsconsciously used. His photos then focus on the steeper TSP, possibly because of the 12-1-0,-2 variations.
[quote="rwh
I e-mailed Tom Wishon about this and he disagreed with Chuck’s statement; his reply was that the hosel is vertical when the club is soled at it's designed loft.
Most irons today have 4-way cambered soles. Are you sure the club is level from front to back when it is clamped in the loft/lie machine?[/quote]
When I'm taking the loft, lie and other measurements the club is not in my loft/lie machine. While I can measure in that machine I use another device to do the measuring. I do this because the lof/lie machine can take a beating where as the other machine is ONLY used for measuring.
Tom's discription is an accurate description of the club orentation in my machine.
rotate around the sweetspot or rotate around the hands
I want to add a backswing point not too clear to the discussion:
On the dowswing, centrifugal force mantains the longitudinal mass gravity centre of the lever assembly (left arm, club), which is the sweetspot, on the same 2 dimensional (flat) circular trajectory. Especially in release, we can see the sweet spot staying on The Plane, or just staying moving in the same flat circular motion, while the lighter hands come closer to the body and near to the ground when rolling the wrists (with uncocked wrists, but plenty nº3 accumulator).
In the backswing(from address to end/top) rotating the shaft around the sweetspot and not viceversa is very difficult, and having the sweetpot as a "fixed or rotation fixed point/centre" reference point is very difficult. Here little centrifugal force can be generated. So when a turn in the left wrist is made, the club (shaft and club head) moves around the hands.
So when Homer Kelley was talking about "rotating the shaft around the sweetspot and not viceversa" maybe he is only adding this to the dowswing.
Because in the backswing it is better I think to have as reference point the hands moving with the same thrust' direction on the same plane and controlling the hands (rotating the clubhead/shaft around the hands). Because when you attempt to rotate your hands around the clubhead(club's sweetspot), rotate the hands (by turning action of the wrists) around a "sweetspot moving in a 2 dimensional angular motion(on the plane)", the club's sweetspot will be throwed out of plane (becomes 3 dimensional sweetspot's path) by not on plane forces that don't move in the same direction along the plane or flat circular trajectory. Not on plane forces such as cocking(when the left wrist cocking action is not on plane, i.e. when the left back of the hand is not facing/resting on the sweetspot plane), also turning/rolling with non zero nº3 accumulator is not an on plane force with the plane the sweetspot had previous to starting the turn/roll.
An experiment to illustrate this, hold a very light dowel and get with zero pivot on a position in the downswing when the right forearm is level to the ground. Point the dowel to your intended line of flight(to the ball), and then swing to impact very very very slowly. In the way down roll fast, snap rolling your wrist (but keep the hand's slow but even thrust) so at impact the imaginary clubface will be vertical to the intended line of flight. There you can see that the dowel rotated around the hands, the hands kept the same direction of motion (or in the same path), while the extreme of the dowel that would be the clubhead moved outward far beyond the line of flight, and the dowel missed the ball because the dowel moved away, and the hands mantained its position.
Incrementing the experiment's downswing velocity increases the centriugal force, and the effect "sweetspot/dowel impact zone becoming out of 2 dimensional plane, flat surface" is minimized. The backswing velocity is smaller in comparison to the velocity we can see at release.
Can you TGM's confirm if at the backswing you follow the sentence "rotate around the sweetspot", or do you turn the left wrist and move/rotate the clubhead around the hands, mantaining the hands in an ideal flat surface/plane and then when that is done, a little later you put the sweetspot on that same plane the hands are moving in.
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